"What Fresh Hell is This? Perimenopause, Menopause, Other Indignities, and You" with Author Heather Corinna

Bree Luck: Today. I am so excited to introduce you to Heather Corinna, a queer feminist activist, author, educator, artists, teacher, organizer, and innovator who grows big things from small seeds and works to create cultivate and support positive growth and change. Heather is the founder, director, designer and editor of the web clearing house and organization, Scarleteen, the first truly comprehensive sex, sexuality, and relationship, education site, and resource for young people of its kind. Heather and the rest of the team at Scarleteen have provided millions of young people, accurate and inclusive information and support every year for more than 20 years. 

And if you love a teenager, please check out Scarleteen and share it with your kid. It's, it's such a valuable resource. Heather is also the author of the inclusive, comprehensive, and progressive sex, sexual health and relationship book for young adults, S E X, the all you need to know, sexuality guide to get you through your teens and twenties. 

Now in its second edition and also "Wait, Wait,  A Comic Book Guide to Relationships, Bodies and Growing Up for Older and Middle Readers and Younger Teens."  And they recently wrote the new, highly inclusive memoir slash survival guide. "What Fresh Hell Is This? Perimenopause, Menopause, Other Indignities, and You" which came out this summer 

They've been a sexuality and contraception and abortion educator and counselor for the Cedar rivers clinics, feminist women's health center and the director of the connect teen outreach and education program in Seattle, which primarily served transient homeless youth and reproductive health patients. 

The were a previous member of the editorial board for the American journal of sexuality education and they are a writer and contributing editor for the 2011 edition of our bodies ourselves and their sexuality advice column was previously syndicated at RH reality check rewind. 

 There were also a lead plaintiff in the ACLU versus Gonzalez case, arguing against the child online protection act COPA, which would have removed young adults access to needed sexuality information. 

I mean, truly, truly. Heather is a rockstar. I read Heather's book. What fresh hell is this over the summer? And I have to say that the idea of interviewing them was a big motivation for making this an interview formatted podcast. So this week, you get to hear my conversation with Heather. And when Heather and I jumped on the line, we leaped right into the meat of this conversation. 

I mean, before any niceties --  before I could even press record, we were off. So as you join in, you'll hear me showing Heather my copy of their book. It is marked up tabbed up dog-eared annotated and very, very loved. I truly think this is a book that every person who stands a chance at going through menopause should read. And that includes not only my Gen X comrades, but also millennials and forward-thinking young adults of gen Z. This book also provides. Uh, section written by Joanne Mason, about menopause for people born with testicular systems, which is wonderfully informative and expansive for those of us who forget that menopause affects us all in some way. And because I love this book so freaking much this week, I'm doing a giveaway. 

So if you submit a five-star rating and a written review on apple podcasts, I'll select one person from among those who leave a review, and that one person will receive a copy of Heather's book. You can have my copy that's annotated, or you can choose a nice, fresh, clean version. It'll be up to the winner and I'll announce the winner in next week's episode. 

Just so, you know, the one thing a lot of people ask me, "what can I do to help support you with your podcast?" And the one thing that you can really do is to leave a five-star review in a written review on apple podcasts that goes for any podcast or not, not just me. Sharing with other people is the best thing you can do for a podcast. 

I do want to point out before we dive into this conversation that this episode has a fair amount of profanity in it. It is warranted profanity, but you know, if you have little kids around and you don't want them to hear, then you might want to put on headphones. And if you struggle with body dysmorphia or an eating disorder, I just want to let you know that we discuss topics related to these issues in depth. 

And I wanted to let you know before you start listening, but for now, just enjoy this episode about what fresh hell is this by Heather? I really, I mean, I got to show you, I have to show you Heather, show you the book  

Heather Corinna: for, oh, your tabs. Do you have the tabs? Oh my God, it's beautiful. I have a couple of books like that, that I did research on that I got rid of because like I hated them instead of loving them. And I put them in the like free little libraries here. 

And I think first of all, Do the people in my neighborhood appreciate that I basically overwhelmed all of the free little library books with menopause books and with the menopause books that I didn't like, secondly, are they like what's all these tabs because I thought I should take them off. And then I'm like, I don't have time  

Bree Luck: I love it. So I want to tell you a little bit about how I came to find your book and why it's so special to me.  

Heather Corinna: I love this story. 

Bree Luck: So I'm a coach and I have had a number of clients in the last year. Many of my clients have been in their twenties and thirties, but then suddenly I had an influx this summer of people, mostly women in their forties and fifties. And I realized that there were certain themes that kept coming up that were so,so obvious and overwhelming that I was like, there's, there's something underneath this. 

Right. I'm also 48. Menopause had been something that was sort of like, oh, it will happen someday. Like many people. I really had no real idea that I was in perimenopause. And this summer in August, I woke up one morning I live in Virginia. We had our windows open and it was quite warm and I woke up and I thought, I think I'm having a hot flash because I was sweating and hot. And I said to my husband, I think I'm having a hot flash. And he said, oh no, no, no, it's just August. And that may be, it may be that it was August, but I realized, first of all, I have no idea . I have no idea what a hot flash means. 

 And I'm scared. I mean, I was almost embarrassed to tell him, I think I may have had a hot flash. This is the person I trust with everything in my life. And so then I told my kids, Hey kids, I think I may have had a hot flash. And they said, oh no, no, you're too young for that. 

You're too young. And so I thought, okay, this is really hitting a sensitive spot. And, and I hate that I'm supposed to be comforted by them saying you're too young and no it's August. And there's something really wrong with that. So I immediately went to the bookstore and I just sat in the health section and was truly just looking at all the books and looking for something that didn't say ladies in it, because it just doesn't resonate with me. 

And your book truly fell into my lap. And, and I read half of it in the bookstore. And then, and that, well, maybe, I mean, I skimmed half of it in the bookstore. It's, it's, it's, it's a meaty book. It has a lot in it. I mean, your recording is 12 hours, right?  

Heather Corinna: Something like that.  

Bree Luck: And, and then I took it home and started, really marking it up and I bought several other books as well, but I have to say that that one has really resonated the most with me. 

And I appreciate, your approach to really a non-gendered look at menopause. But what I really appreciate is the full holistic and cultural look and, and the way that it really made me question on a deep and supported level and supported in part because you offered, just a really great resource for exploring some of these questions, but also because you say, Hey, get support in the book. 

 but, areally supported, way of looking at the conditioning that, that we've all been, exposed to and that we've all that we, that we either wrestle against or are completely unaware of. And so, anyway, that is my story of finding your book.  

Heather Corinna: That's a good story. I mean, yeah, we can't, I mean, there's no, we experience it here. 

You know, like we, we can't experience this in a vacuum and we can't divorce our menopause experience and our perimenopause experience from the culture in which it's happening. Right?. And we can't kind of piece it apart and be like, oh, there's the cultural piece. And then there's the not cultural piece, right? 

Like, I mean, who could possibly figure that out? You know? I mean, it's just, and of course all of our cultural pieces are not exactly the same because our cultures in our communities and all of these things are not exactly the same nor are our experiences, of course, in our cultures and our communities the same. 

But yeah, you can't, you, you can't possibly untangle them and we can't experience it in a vacuum. We can't be like, oh, well the cultural, you know, treatment of this sucks. So I'm just going to divorce myself from that and go over here and have this wonderful utopian experience of perimenopause and menopause separate from all of that. 

I mean, that would be amazing. 

Bree Luck: Well, maybe it would be amazing, but maybe not, maybe. I mean, and, and I am, I will say I'm an optimist. and I guess that there's also a part of me that says, look, Bree, this is part of your activism. This is part of, this is part of, taking a deeper look at social justice at medical equity at,at, at ways to have a larger effect in the world. 

 This is a real opportunity to. To really look at the suffering and, understand it from a personal and physical level. And also make cultural changes and social changes.  

And I don't expect everyone to feel that way. I'm just grateful. I'm grateful for your book, because I think for people who are interested in that, it's a great way in. 

Heather Corinna: Right.  
 

Well, I think too, you know, where it's interesting because the timing that when I started doing sex ed work for younger people, the cohort of people that I was doing it for were really people that at the time that I started doing it were about 10 to 15 years younger than me. 

and really that same cohort right now is just entering or just about to enter perimenopause . We're you know, those of us who are in the thick of it or have just kind of crossed over, I'm also in a position to help millennials that are coming into this so that their experience is a very different one. Certainly a very different one than the generation before ours had, but even a very different one than we had, you know, I mean, all of us talking even right now make it so that millennials, a lot of millennials are not going to be having the experience where they are thinking I'm too young or they're, this is not on their radar at 35 or 40, you know, for somebody 40 right now paying any attention to media. 

Heather Corinna: It is in fact now on their radar.  

Bree Luck: Yeah.  
 

Heather Corinna: And that's a big deal.  

Bree Luck: It is a big deal. It is. And, it, it won't take away the struggle of it, but it might give them greater resources earlier. So they're not blindsided by it.  

Heather Corinna: Yeah, absolutely. Well, and you know, there's a lot of the, there, you know, there are a lot of things that you can do to prepare yourself, to make it a lot easier. 

And certainly there are some things that even if there are things that are going to be harder for you because of your genetics, because of pre-existing conditions, because of your life circumstances, that you can make adjustments, or you can get medications ahead of time, or, you know, you can, you can add things to your world and your life or what you eat, or, you know, what, what you do for yourself ahead of time. 

To make it a little bit easier that are much harder to add and adjust for when you're in the thick of it. And you're overwhelmed and you know, and also too, life collides in a really bad way for so many of us in our later forties, you know, I have a lot of stuff going on. I mean, my whole life has been kind of a shit show for so much of the time period, but certainly in my early forties. I had a lot less just kind of, you know, caving in on me as far as just kind of mid-life stuff happening than I did in my later forties. So I, you know, would have had more ability to kind of do some things for myself than I did when I had all of these spinning plates, you know, with things with elder care with other health conditions coming for me, you know, with my partner's kids, you know, with all this stuff going on. 

So the timing makes a difference too,I think..  

Bree Luck: It does.  

So let's take a step back and let me start with the question that I ask everyone on the podcast, which is how old are you and where are you in the perimenopause menopause process? Now I know where you were in the book. Where are you now? 

Heather Corinna: This is a very exciting answer that I have. 

I'm 51. And on October 21st, I finally reached menopause. So I, you know, I didn't, for the longest time, I didn't actually believe, like I was like, bullshit. It's going to happen to everybody else. And I will be the person who's in perimenopause forever. I will write a next book that I'm like still in hell. 

Right? Like, I will be like in the Guinness book of world records as like the oldest reached menopause, but, you know, unlike. Almost nothing is average for me, but I'm like, I reached menopause at like the average age of menopause. So there it is. there it is. And you know, this year has really been awful for me in a lot of ways so far, but I will say that, you know, they generally kind of say that a lot of the kind of biggest impacts, of the whole menopausal transition in terms of vasomotor stuff, you know, a lot of stuff tend to be the year or two right around menopause, but that generally after menopause stuff does get better. 

Bree Luck: And, there are a lot of, you know, from reading the book, I had a very hard time. Heather had a very hard perimenopause process. 

Heather Corinna: It was not fun. it was just not fun and, vasomotor stuff. I really like, I mean, I was just like chronically a bucket of sweat all the time. 

I had really, really bad night sweats. I feel like there was just two years where I just did not sleep. at all where, you know, I was just, I was just the walking wet dead. and my sleep has radically improved. I'm not having as many hot flashes, like, I'm actually really not. so, you know, it does kind of seem like things seem to be resolving a little bit. I mean, you know, it's interesting because most of my life, I always felt like my body did not like hormones period. Like sex hormones. Like I just, when I would try to take birth control pills, my body hated them. I had really, really, really bad periods. 

I tried sometimes to do like a progesterone thing to try and make that better. Nope. Terrible. And often I kind of felt like I have an estrogen imbalance problem. Like I just, I feel like I have too, too, too much of it. and so, you know, one of the things is, as I kind of got into later peri-menopause I was noticing that a lot of the stuff that was happening to other people in later peri-menopause that was bothering them was not happening to me. 

and it's still, isn't like, I'm not having a lot of the dryness stuff that people are having. I am still having some problems with migraines, which is usually kind of an estrogen problem. So I think quite frankly, I might've been right. Which might actually equip me to be particularly well in post-menopause, for a while. 

which for me, especially as somebody that I, like I said, I, I just, I've never done well on taking any kind of hormone medication. And particularly my mother had estrogen sensitive breast cancer. So I, I wouldn't, testosterone is probably the only thing I'd consider taking since other things are either dangerous or I've had a bad experience, but so that's where I'm at. 

Bree Luck: I really encourage people to read your chapter on hormones. I just feel like which chapter is that? It was the, really the "Ride the estrogenic ricochet" section was just helpful to just understand how the hormones are actually working in your body. the effects of the shifting hormones, and then to have a better understanding then of, for people who do decide to, to add hormones into their system, to understand a little bit better, how that works and I actually would really love to talk to you about this because I have people on this podcast who are bringing in a multitude of perspectives, which I love. And my whole reason for doing this was really to learn more about perimenopause and menopause and share with people as, as this learning happens. And I find myself, really wondering how do I feel about these different approaches ? I had one guest who came on and is really a big fan of bio-identical hormones. 

I also have a history of breast cancer in my family. There's no way I'm going to do that. Like no way. But it makes me think you had a really great section in the book about thinking critically about all of the different marketing, tools and tactics that are geared towards us and menopause because it is true, if you are in your forties, you're getting lots of stuff thrown your way. And it's hard sometimes to know what to believe and especially because we're making quick decisions all the time, we don't have time to do the kind of really thoughtful research that you did for this book. And could you talk to us about some tips that you have for us so that as we are inundated with all of the ways to grapple with this time, how can we, evaluate what might work for us? 

Bree Luck: What are your tips?  

Heather Corinna: Sure. you know, I mean, I think, I think one big thing is like, I would be on the lookout for a lot of stuff that says that it's menopause specific. Right. Because you know, when you, when you look at all of it, there's, there's not really a whole lot that we might need or might benefit us that really is menopause specific. You know, I mean like our needs in this are not necessarily about menopause in this ginormous big sphere way. We're all going to have very specific needs because we're impacted by this in a different way. Right? Like you might have blood pressure issues that come up and , I might have bone issues that come up and this, again, somebody might have, dermatological issues that come up for them that don't come up for me. 

Somebody might have Vulvo-vaginal issues that come up. Well for somebody else, they don't have those issues that come up at all. And for any of those things. Those things can usually happen at other stages of life, not necessarily just because of menopause. So, you know, I mean, when we're talking about things like healthcare providers in that way, it kind of makes sense, right? That sometimes, especially when people are not finding that they're served well by their general practitioners, or if they're have been seeing an OB GYN around stuff and their OB GYN is definitely more on the OB side of the, of the gyn stuff, then it kind of makes sense to be like, I would like somebody that specializes and is educated more in menopause. 

That makes sense. But when it comes to stuff, You know, supplements, products, you know, your diet... I mean, don't even,  

Bree Luck: I want to get started. I actually want to talk about the diet,  

Heather Corinna: We can go there later, right? Like your diet, your exercise program, your, I mean, you know, like, I mean all of this stuff, like it's just these things, 

I mean, I think really, it makes more sense to say, what are the things that are happening to me in this and what do I need for them? But if you're, yeah. I think the things that say, oh, the anything that suggests that it's good for everything in menopause is like, well, because everything in menopause is. 

so many things, nothing could be good for everything in menopause. I mean, like, except to not be experiencing menopause and nothing, nothing can do that. Like there is no like, and you're not in menopause anymore. That's not a thing, even for people that want to and can do hormone therapies, hormone therapies, don't even help with everything. 

Heather Corinna: Hormone therapies help really well with a couple limited things, you know? So there's, there's nothing, that's everything. So I think anything that says that it's for everything, not so much and anything that says that it's for everybody is really another one. You know, that's something else. I think that you also kind of have to, I mean, for me, I want to see some sensitivity to the fact that this is, you know, from perimenopause through post-menopause, this is decades of our life. So if somebody who's trying to sell us stuff has no sensitivity to what something is going to cost us. I mean, I'm like, fuck you, you know, I mean, I'm sorry, but we have to, we have to get through this. 

So whatever it is, if it's something that costs a lot of money and there just doesn't seem to really be awareness or sensitivity about what that is or concern or anything that I just, I want, I need to see people looking out for us. You know, especially if it's, if it's the kind of marketing, where one of you, somebody who's, one of me should have my back rather than be trying to just profit off of me. 

And if they are, then I want to see them be aware of my needs and my limitations. I want to see ways that they're also serving our community. And this is a big market. So if somebody is doing things in ways that they're having a profit, I also want to see ways that they're offering service to our community, that isn't just profit based. 

What are they doing for free or what are they doing to share some of the profit? and that's another big thing. Yeah. I mean, those are just the things off the, off the top of my head.  

Bree Luck: Those are good things. And, and I would say that whole idea of what are people doing to serve that doesn't necessarily make them a profit, is something that expands-- as you said, if it's just about menopause,  

it's probably not so worthy. Nothing is going to be that specific. I would say also that we can extend that value judgment of, Hey, I want to see how this person, this company, this,team is offering a greater value beyond the profit generating value. So that's great.  

Bree Luck: You mentioned that the diet word and you quote Hannah Blank several times in your book and,I love it. 

 Can we talk about bodies? Can we talk about that?  

Heather Corinna: Yeah, let's do it. 

Yes, let's do it. I love Hannah. Hannah is one of my oldest and dearest and Hannah's brilliant. and yeah, if you want to start reading somebody good about bodies, Hannah is an excellent person's work to start with. You know, I think that one of the things is something that you hear a lot of people say, and it's really real is they'll say if this has even been their journey, right. 

For a lot of people, this hasn't even been their journey. But for some people they'll say they went through this really rough journey of trying to make some kind of peace with their body. And then they got to be about 35 40 and they got there and then perimenopause happened and then their body started to change again. 

And then all that. And the next self-acceptance that they got in that piece that they got and they're feeling hot or whatever it was all was like shot to hell. and now they're like, oh, it's all gone. And you know, certainly some of that is about body changes and body changes that often look, if people were feeling that way, you know, some of it was probably about self acceptance. 

Some of it might've been about meeting certain beauty standards. and some of it with the changes would be about changes happening that are not in alignment with beauty standards, be those about aging, be those about body shape. any of those things, you know, there's really no beauty standard in which, you know, everybody's like, you know, covered in sweat and the not sexy way. 

Like you don't really don't really see those kinds of pictures, anywhere ever. Maybe we need to, maybe we need to make that a thing. But I think another thing that often kind of goes unnoticed or unspoken, or like just, I don't know, You know, we're so we're so easy to blame our bodies first, you know, and be angry at ourselves and our bodies first . well, that's not your body's fault. Right? Like why are you mad at your body? Why, why did that get shot to hell? Well, that got shot to hell again, in part, because one we're in this culture that there is no support for this ever-changing body that can be this multitude of shapes and sizes will undoubtedly be this multitude of shapes and sizes, not just person to person, but, 

you know, one person in their whole life, but also that in this particular period of time, once you have hit this time, especially if changes are happening, you were then going to be hit with a barrage of marketing, to tell you something is the matter. And here's how you fix it and you need to fix it and you better fix it. 

And there's, you know, both beauty standard, you better fix it and healthism, you better fix it. Right. You better fix it because you'll be unattractive and unappealing, but also you better fix it because, oh God you'll have a heart attack. Or, you know, I mean, like, and it's really these things combine also with that other like. 

You know, if you've gone through any kind of journey of getting through your adolescence, getting through your twenties and being like, okay, I'm finally at a place where I either feel good or I at least feel a little better. And then it got challenged again, it's the perfect storm. 

you know, and like we were talking about a little bit before we ran, when this is also really paired with a lot of like, oh no, no, your health. Oh no, no exercise. Oh God, oh God, your super racist BMI. you have to look out right now, this all gets there. There's, you know, I mean, I know because I look more than I should at my book sales. 

Heather Corinna: You know, when you look at book lists for menopause, half of them are diets.  

Yeah. They are. 

You know, and they're there in the top list. So those are being bought, right? It's not this that those are being produced. Those books are being purchased and they're being purchased at great volume. as I mentioned in the book, you know, we are at the second highest risk for eating disorders after adolescents. And it's for very similar reasons, we are just as much marketed to, to change our bodies. We are just as much shown images of our bodies that are unrealistic and unattainable. we just, as much are in periods of our life where our bodies and so much of the rest of our lives are spiraling out of our control, right. 

And food and how we eat is something that we can control or we think we can control anyway. we are rewarded by our culture for controlling it, right? Like you are always, everybody's gonna congratulate you for being on a diet. even if you don't have the results, you're supposed to quote unquote right. 

For dieting, you're always congratulated for trying, To do what you can to be on a diet. So, you know, it's, it's, it's rough going.  

Bree Luck: Do you think that that's a particularly Western culture issue? Do you know? I'm just curious,  

Heather Corinna: you know, I'm really like, I'm S I'm, so I'm so tethered in my attention to Western culture that I'm just probably not really the best person to ask. 

I mean, yes, that's my sense. But also that's kind of, even as somebody that works internationally in the sex ed space, that's so much more of what I pay attention to, but we'll look where also where the biggest, this is, you know, this is where diet culture makes its biggest profits, right? Like, I mean, this is where the cash cow of all of this lives. 

nobody makes money from this stuff. Like we make money from this stuff. particularly in the United States. So, you know, that's, that's, that's, that is what it is, but it, you know, it's, it's one of these things where, you know, hopefully I feel like that's one of the things where if you can do it, you know, this is hopefully a good menopausal bridge, you know, of all the like, you know, giving less of a fuck things. 

Heather Corinna: The, the, the you're going to have the body that you're going to have. You know, post-menopause like, look, unless you spend every dime, you have on this stuff on your appearance. And every minute that you have at the gym or whatever. And, you know, I know that there are people that have that ability and that desire and you know, it is what it is. 

We all make our choices and do what we do, but that's just, that's not even with. Most people's abilities, you know, by and large, for most of us we're going to have the body that we're going to have. And again, that's both about genetics. It's also about things like our, our health conditions, our abilities. 

 and the older that we get, the more that it just kinda is what it is, you know? And so acceptance of our bodies just becomes one of these things where it's just kinda make it or break it. You know, the older that we get, the more it's just either we're going to accept our bodies, you know, and feel better, or we're going to dig in and keep feeling worse and worseas the years go by. and you know, to me that the, just the latter is just an impossible proposition. Yeah. You know, especially when we can't get away from that, you know, life is hard enough, like there's enough hard stuff in life. And some of it, at least we can compartmentalize or we can get away with, but we live in here, we live in these vessels. 

Heather Corinna: We can't escape them. And if we, if we hate them all the time, it's really miserable.  

Bree Luck: There are sort of three takeaways from that section in your book that have really stuck with me since that day, sitting on the floor of the Barnes and Noble. I'm sorry for my local bookstore for not being at my local bookstore. 

Number one is and I believe I'm getting this right, that more women die from complications from anorexia in menopausal years then in teen years. Is that right?  

Heather Corinna: Yeah.  
 

Bree Luck: Yeah. Number, number two. was the suggestion about when you're talking to your medical provider? not getting weighed and that, that was, revelatory for me, honestly, it was, I mean, it's just such a thing and I hate getting weighed and that, and it always sort of triggers something and I realized I don't have to. 

I mean that just moment of empowerment.  

Heather Corinna: Yeah. That's so many people, so many of us have that experience. I feel like probably almost everybody hates it. I'm sure that there's some people that don't, but I, you know, cause there's no, there's no everybody for everything, but most people I feel like really, really hate it. 

For all the reasons and more times than not it is, this is, it is literally on necessary. We do not, we do not need to be, we do not need to be weighed. 

Bree Luck: I think you just took 80% of the pain of going to the doctor out of going to the doctor. Right. I mean that, can you do the same for the dentist? If you can do that for the dentist, then  

we're all good. 

Heather Corinna: Yeah. Yeah.I can't help there., just find the dentist, that drugs, drugs  

Bree Luck: and number three was, and this is one that I think about every day, which is the pretty privilege and. And just being more aware of when I, first of all, I never have thought of myself as being that pretty. I've always, you know, I've always wanted to be more, right. 

There's always been that thing. And recently I had a person, a really great person who I had a conversation with and he said, how come you never age? You just never seem to age. And I, I realized, oh, this is part of the pretty privilege, right? This is, this is what I'm coming up against. And when he said that, the, the first thought that I had with this was the swelling of pride, which then I had to think about. And it was really disconcerting, right? Like why, why am I feeling I that's nothing. What, it's just, that's nothing to be proud of. 

It's a, it's a thing. And then the second feeling was this fear of, no matter what, you're running against the clock. Right. And then of course the third thought is. Release it just try releasing it and sitting with both of those feelings and getting curious around it and letting that go. 

So I think about it all the time. I think about it when people like an Instagram posts, that's a picture. And when someone,holds the door open or the other side of that is invisibility, which you also write about in the book. And I'd love to talk about that as well, too, because I am beginning to really notice the invisibility factor coming in and I keep looking for the superpower in it. 

Heather Corinna: You know, it's, it's weird for me. I don't like being the center of attention. I've never liked being the center of attention and I found myself,You know, the work that I do with sex ed, I kind of came into it kind of thinking I could, like, I, I didn't really think that I would have to be the center of attention. 

I thought I could just be like answering letters. Like I just, I didn't envision kind of the way that it would form itself, and even writing books, the process of writing books here were just home, alone, writing books, you know, then you have to market books and you have to do all this stuff, but you don't, you don't really think about that when you're writing books. 

And I know that I know a bunch of different people that write books and I have friends that don't really like the writing part that really like the product part in the selling part. I, you know, to me, I wish I could just write them and then they would be like done. and I didn't have to sell that. 

Like I don't, you know, this, stuff's not really. It's not really the stuff that I like. And so, you know, to some degree there's a relief for me, right. Like in kind of being like, okay, like I can do that. I can, I can maybe just kind of slink along. And I think as an abuse survivor, like an assault survivor, like I'm kind of hoping, you know, and we're waiting for kind of that, like, that feels potentially protective. 

Like, you know, maybe, maybe that'll, that'll give me a feeling of, of safety, you know, that kind of anonymity,I don't know, it's, it's interesting . I've noticed that I'm like, when I see kind of people put up younger pictures of themselves, I, you know, I had an era of my life when I did pinup stuff. 

 And I'm feeling really weird about putting up, like, I don't really put up older pictures. Like I like being the age that I am and I'm not really here for the comparison in part, because I think people say those kinds of things, because they feel like they should, you know, whether or not it's true. 

And I don't, I don't even know if it is, and I don't even want to think about if it is. Yeah. You know, I, I don't, I don't know if I care or not. I don't know that I've really thought about if I care or not, but I know that I don't want to care, is to say, oh, you know, you still look, however it is right. 

But then it opens up even that conversation or that people think you need that conversation. Right. And it's just like, oh God, it's such a tiresome thing, even if that's not, even if that's not why the arc is there, maybe the arc is there because it's just, you know, We are our own history. 

Right. W w we like that we have history, but you can't even say isn't it cool that I've, that I've gotten older, even if you want to be able to look older, a lot of the times people won't necessarily kind of let you have that. They'll tell you that you still look so young, even if you know that you don't or even if you don't want to, even if you're like, no, I don't, you still look 20, right. 

From somebody that you're like, I do not still look 20, and I don't want to look 20, please  

stop saying that to me.  

Bree Luck: I think that we are going to have fluctuating feelings about these issues always. But it is an opportunity to get curious around it. 

So. When this lovely gentlemen said, how come you never age? You looks so young. I can think what feels more true to me. Like what do I think he was really trying to say? I think he was really trying to say, it's great to see you, you're bringing some energy into this moment, right? 

Like that's, I think what he meant. And it just makes me think, how can I, share more of that with the people in my life and give myself that grace too that is not tied to age.. 

one of the other things that you talk about, I love that you dedicate a whole chapter of the book to relationships in menopause because of course it doesn't just affect us. It affects all the people around us. Can you,can you tell us a little bit about some thoughts that you have for people to handle relationships during this? 

Heather Corinna: Sure. Yeah. We definitely need to not kill other people. I mean, it's interesting, right? Because even that one, awful snippet from that Robert Wilson book where he's talking about that monster that comes in and is talking about how he literally is thinking about killing his menopausal wife. 

I mean, I feel like for a long time, the,The narrative was certainly like, how will we tolerate these menopausal people? Right? Like, that's really what it was like somehow the people suffering the most were not those of us who are actually in the thing, but the people around us. Right. Which is just, I mean, which is ridiculous . 

I mean, it's like, you know, I had a friend over here the other day talking about depression and they're very similar narratives around depression. And, and the, the idea that people around a depressed person are somehow suffering more than the depressed person themselves, which is of course ridiculous. 

 so for sure it can, especially if we're having a hard time, be difficult for everyone. Absolutely right. But the person for whom it is going to be the most difficult is the person whose body and mind, it is happening in, I mean, certainly education and information for everybody helps, you know, I think that something that certainly makes it the most difficult for every relationship is any kind of silence around it. 

Heather Corinna: Right? I mean, if we're going through something that's in any way, challenging, even a little challenging, and we are not telling the other people in our life, then of course, that's going to make our relationship more challenging. if we're upset, we're tired, you know, we're confused. We're having executive function problems. 

I mean, any of the things that can be happening to us in this and the other person doesn't understand why, and we're not telling them why. There's just a host of ways that that can have a bad impact on our relationship. Also make our experience in perimenopause and menopause more difficult. 

so I think that telling people I'm one of the things that,Dr. Lux, James and I were talking about in the book too, is that I think there's this idea that it's not acceptable to talk to kids about. but it is, you know, just like it's acceptable to talk about menstruation, just like it's acceptible to talk about pregnancy, just like it's acceptable to talk about if you're sick, about sex, any of these things, you know, explaining what this is and what might just, you know, you have a little talk about it. This is what it is. These are the kinds of things that can happen to somebody in it. I'm might have some moods. I might need some extra space in time. 

Heather Corinna: I might be a little less patient than normal. I might need some help from you. I might need you to do some more things than you normally do while I'm going through this. You know, any of these things just that's it, you know, that's not, I mean, like literally that could be a 15 minute conversation. 

It's just not, not even that complicated. And then when something is going on, then it's as simple as being like, this is what's going on. I'm having a hot flash. I'm having a bad day. I'm depressed right now. I'm having anxiety right now. Any of these things. As you know, I'm a big proponent of extra space, whether that be physical space, emotional space, both any of these things. 

 I think that most of us really need it. certainly if you don't need it or want it, you don't have to have it. But I think, I think building it in for everybody, not just necessarily for one person, I really. The story that Kimberly Dark told about her partner that was in menopause, that they slept together and, you know, her partner was, it was fine because that, you know, she could adjust her whole work schedule. 

Heather Corinna: But Kimberly, who was not at that time in menopause, who could not be sleeping, you know, like, I think they may be Kimberly might've liked to have had like an extra bed somewhere, even though Kimberly was not the person in menopause. Right. So sometimes making extra space for more than just us can be helpful because maybe we're not the one that needs space. 

Maybe the other person involved needs some space. you know, you never, you never really know. I think that another thing is, is that it is not particularly uncommon for this to be a time when a lot of, things that have been harboring underground in our relationships, come home to roost, you know? 

And so I think that, nobody should be, should be surprised if that happens for one. I, I just, it might even just be something that you kind of prepare yourself for. I think that if that's the case, you know, now it could be as good a time as any for family therapy or couples therapy. if you're not in therapy yourself and you don't want to have, you know, you want to have their be about your relationships, but not in your relationships. 

That can be a thing to do. I think that another thing that can happen a lot of the times is that, and I talk about this in the book is that inequities that have existed for a long time in relationships that have been tolerated, you know, up until now can all of a sudden just become intolerable, and then change them. 

Heather Corinna:  I think that sometimes people can feel like if they've tolerated inequities for a long time, they have to just suck it up and keep things as they are, because then it's status quo. But I just call bullshit. There's never anything in a relationship, no matter how long something has gone on, there's never a certain amount of time that then you don't have a right to ask for it to change. 

You always have a right to ask for change. Always. You know, you also always have a right to leave and get out of something. If something is no longer working for you. So maybe you need a change, you ask for it. And the other person won't give it to you. Well, maybe you don't stay in that relationship anymore. 

 this is also a time of life when people can make some pretty seismic changes. And so another thing I talk about you often will hear people describe it as people blowing up their lives. And then, you know, a lot of times kind of from where I'm sitting, when I look at these stories, A lot of those things don't really look like people blowing up their life. 

Heather Corinna: It looks like people actually redesigning their life in a way that looks like it works a lot better for them. 

Bree Luck: It's a great opportunity to do that. And I, I do love how you do honor the process of 'sploding. yeah,life 'sploding. Yeah, really, really nice. And, and that also when we won't get into this too much now, but I do encourage people to, to read the book because that also conveys to sexual relationships and intimacy too. 

Your exploration of sexuality post-menopause, feels very exciting and hopeful, and it feels related to that, right? That you start to have a better sense of what you need. That it's an opportunity to really take stock of what do you need and to get better at communicating that too. 

Heather Corinna: Yeah. I mean, I feel like with a lot of this, there really is so much opportunity. There's something about, you know, something like this happening that can show you, oh, this is going on. I don't have what I need, or this is going on. It's not going to work and what I have happening, what do I do now? 

Because you know, some of these things that are temporary. That's the good news, right. But some of them aren't, some of them is this is changing and now it's going to be this way. So if something isn't working right now, you're going to need to change it so that it can work maybe for even the rest of your life. 

and I think also too, it's like, especially if we're feeling crummy in this and this makes us feel bad. If, when we're physically feeling bad, we can do something in our lives or for ourselves that is positive. It can really counteract that one. Like, okay, well I might be tired and I might feel bloated and crabby and sweaty, but I can be energized by this new thing that I'm doing for myself that I really want, And like, I'm looking forward to.  

Heather Corinna: Yeah. Yeah. Don't you say? I think there's somewhere in there that you say it's time to take up a habit, like a, a new hobby that's really out there and random or something. I can't remember exactly.  

You know, like, I mean, it's, you know, you there again, this is the guaranteed you're entering a new phase of life, you know? 

And you can, if you want to keep things the same and it works for you to keep same, same, that's fine too. This is not like, there's nothing wrong with that. That's okay, too, if that works for you and that's what you want. Cool. That's great. But if it's not what you want, shit's changing any way, you know? So sometimes when things are changing anyway, it's almost like, well, you might as well. 

Because everything's all over the place. Anyway, when everything's kind of running a muck and things are in chaos, you know, sometimes it kind of pays to just go ahead and be a chaos agent. Okay. Yes.  

we're almost at a time, so I just love for you to, this is a hard question. I know, but if you had one thing that you felt like people who are going through perimenopause should know or do, what would it be? 

Heather Corinna: Oh gosh, that is really hard. 

I mean, I think, you know, It's not really hard for everybody, right? And so this is not going to be relevant for people for whom it's not really hard, but I think that if it winds up being really hard and you're not prepared for it, it really, you know, it's, it's so overwhelming, especially if you already have a difficult life. 

And so I think that,you know, I think that doing whatever you can do for yourself, especially if it's, if it's, if it's challenging, whatever you can do to just put everything down and tend to it and tend to yourself. And even if it's like, you know, Our on semi sabbatical for things. If you need to, even if you think about it as being like I'm on disability for six months, for a year, for two years, for five years, I mean, it's for as long as it is, I just, I feel like it's one of these things where if it's really, really hard and things are going to hell, if we don't really take care of ourselves in this, we've got decades after this potentially to get through. 

So if at the end of this, we are just run through. We're not going to make it, you know, like we're not going to make it, or we're just going to be so physically and emotionally and psychologically just depleted, you know, that what's on the other side. Yeah, it's just gonna, it's just going to be impossible, you know, and I, and I know it's hard. 

Like I really do. I'm somebody with limited resources, you know, I didn't come into life with things. I don't have a lot of family support. I don't have things like that. So I get that. you know, for me, that kind of thing has meant, you know, choosing to live lean and a bunch of different things, but I think that as much as you possibly can to really just kind of be like, oh shoot, okay. 

I gotta, I gotta just put stuff down and take care of myself and say no to things. And,. You know, it's like camp ME just, you know, I'm just gonna go to go to camp me for a while.  

Bree Luck: I love that. I think it's really wise. I'd like to go to camp me, 

Heather Corinna: you know? Yeah. I mean, and again, you might be limited, obviously we're all probably limited in how much we can do it, but however much we can, we can do it. I think. Yeah. Life is, you know, life is hard sometimes. So, I mean, just don't know what's coming around the corner to have to deal with God. That's been like my last couple of years is that I'm like, Jesus, just when I think I've dealt with it all, I just get another blow. 

So you gotta, you gotta wrap up. Yeah,  

Bree Luck: you do. You do well. I'm glad that you've made it to the other side of menopause. It's it's hopeful. You've given me hope.  

Heather Corinna: I know I kept being like, I'll believe it. When I see it 

Bree Luck: and, and I'm happy to celebrate that for you Here are my key takeaways from this conversation with Heather Corinna. The beauty industry and the health industry are money-making ventures that prey upon our insecurities, there is no denying this. It's a fact. When we feel bad about how our bodies look, it is because our culture wants us to feel crappy so that we spend money to fix what doesn't fit. And that's as true of the menopausal body as it is of other bodies.  

Bree: You don't have to get weighed at your doctor's office. And although we didn't discuss it specifically here, you can also request for the doctor or nurse, not to reveal your weight to you if you still want to be weighed, but just don't want to know how much you weigh. Y'all I stopped weighing myself a year ago and it has been revelatory, just stepping on a scale can be a deterrent for getting medical care. So see how you feel about taking that out of the equation. If it's a block for you.  

 Prepare yourself for shifts in relationships know that you are not alone. If you're finding yourself feeling more aware and less tolerant of inequities . You always have the right to ask for change. There's so much good information in this book 

follow me on Instagram, over the lovely unbecoming and join me at the free and private Facebook discussion group for the pause to go podcast, where I'll be posting very brief readings from this book all week long DME, if you can't find it. There's so much to track and social media these days, but you can just shoot me a message and I'll connect you with the content you want. And as always, if you're interested in working with me as a coach to make the most of your life's transitions, check out my website at: http://thelovelyunbecoming.com/.