Note: This transcript was generated by AI technology and has not been edited by a sentient human.

00:00:00
It as turbulent as it was, it was incredibly transformational. You talk about the physiological changes and the hormonal shifts and they can fluctuate, but what then? The psychological things that brings up in you? You ask, well, what was your puberty? Well, then it does bring it up in a way.

00:00:20
And you find yourself facing that younger woman in you and Mine. I was looking at her heartbreak and her hopes and dreams and what do I want to take with me into the next phase of my life?

00:00:37
Welcome to Pause To Go, the podcast that's all about making the most of life's transitions from middle school through menopause. I'm your host, Bree Luck joining you as we embark on a journey of self discovery and questionable decisions. Get ready for heartfelt conversations, expert insights and personal stories that'll have you laughing. Crying and saying, thank goodness I'm not alone. If you've lost your midlife cris survival kit, we've got you covered.

00:01:10
So join me, won't you? And together we can pause to go.

00:01:20
Let's take the shame out of some of the crazy things we do. Have you made some questionable decisions in your perimenopausal years? You are not alone, and I want to know all about it. Send me an email, drop me a line or leave me a message and share your story of making questionable decisions for an upcoming episode of Pause To Go. I've been spending a lot of time with my girlfriends lately.

00:01:50
It's been good. It has been instrumental in making my way through a really challenging season. I think I underestimated the power of real, heart to heart girlfriend conversations, and I am just so freaking grateful for the remarkable friends in my life. When I say girlfriends, it's interesting because that feels very gendered, and maybe it is, but I think what I really mean is those friendships that can have the conversations that waltz between the mundane and the petty, the deep, the spiritual, the open, the vulnerable. Just being with people who will tell you the truth about your life, people you trust to tell you the truth in all of its rawness.

00:02:52
And I ask most of my guests, what is one wish that they would have for people who are in perimenopause? And this week, in light of the strength and love and whole and meaningful conversations that I've had with my girlfriends, I just want to say I hope that you can all find a friend or friends or a group or a collective with whom you can have those beautiful, raw, honest, loving conversations. And I know it's a luxury, I know it's a privilege. Not everybody has those people in their day to day lives. So if you are finding yourself feeling like you need to have more of those connections, check out the Posigo podcast group.

00:03:45
I would love for it to be a place where we can have deeper and richer conversations about these issues. So check it out you can go to the Pause to Go podcast group on Facebook, and the links to that are in the show notes. I'd love to have you there and to facilitate some real talk with you today. I have a heart to heart with someone who well, since we recorded this conversation, I do feel like she's become a friend. But I will also say in full disclosure that we were merely warm acquaintances before we had this talk, which really says a lot about this guest, because in this talk she is wise and vulnerable and open so much that you will probably think of her as a friend after this episode, too.

00:04:42
The person I'm talking to is Jamie Virostko. She is a writer, an actor, a theater artist. And if you ever have a chance to see Jamie perform, jump at the Chance. She brings to the stage a combination of rawness and precision that is absolutely electric. And I was delighted that she brought that same energy to this conversation in which she talks about her own experiences of perimenopause.

00:05:26
We talked about some of the regrets that she has from this time and also about the things that really worked out well. This is a conversation that has really stuck with me. Here is Jamie Virostko. So, Jamie, you answered a little vague book post that I did on Facebook about stories about menopause and paramenopause, and so many people wrote. Yeah.

00:05:57
And so many people had advice to offer immediately.

00:06:03
Was really interesting how quickly we go to that place of fixing. Yes. And I was really excited that you answered because I felt immediately that you were coming from a place of sharing. And that's something that I really want from these conversations. So thank you for being willing to.

00:06:31
Share because everybody's experience is so unique. It's hard to jump into fixing because you don't know what you're swimming into with perimenopause. It can be very unique. Great. I'm so happy about that.

00:06:50
Can you tell us really briefly how old you are now and where you are in your menopause journey? Sure. I'm 51 years old. 51 and a half. And I am eight months since my last period.

00:07:05
So almost to full menopause. Oh, you're getting there. Because menopause is twelve months after the final period. Yeah. I want you to just text me.

00:07:18
Text me when it happens. I'm done.

00:07:24
What happens if I end up with. A period like, oh, oops, starting over?

00:07:30
I don't mean to scare you, but I've heard a lot of stories of that happening, of people making it to eleven months and then yeah. Bodies are just so fascinating. Yeah, they are. It's amazing. And being sort of in touch with your body through all these processes, it's fascinating how things change and every little thing.

00:07:52
Speaking of changes, I really love to visit or revisit the beginning of fertility. So if menopause is the end of our fertility as humans, and then we have a good 30 years after that, right? We have a good amount of time. But we have a fair amount of time when we are fertile. And that begins with the onset of mensis, right?

00:08:22
Yeah. And then it ends with menopause. So I'd love to go back to the beginning. Do you have any memories of your adolescence, of when your period began? And what was that like for you?

00:08:37
Yeah, it was very vivid because we were on vacation and so I was eleven and a half. It was between fifth and 6th grade, so it was in the summertime. And I remember my mother just always watching me. And she gave me a book, and it was all about puberty and sort of the do's and the don'ts. And it was pretty modern.

00:09:02
It was helpful information. It just kind of freaked me out, though, because I didn't have a context for know. And we lived next to my grandmother and there's all this weird stuff around. It just I was just feeling very so anyway, finally, after a day in Florida, I got just I couldn't handle it myself and I told my mom. And then the news spread like wildfire around the house, and it was just humiliating.

00:09:30
It was horrible. So you wanted to keep it secret, but you couldn't, so you told your mom and then everybody knew? Yes. Oh, the whole house. I heard it.

00:09:41
I was like, what was going on? Because my dad just he's not subtle. So then what happened? What happened after that? We just sort of started dealing with it.

00:09:51
And I think it took me a while to be able to come out of the back bedroom, to be able to face everybody. And then nobody talked about it. I think we just kind of pretended it didn't happen. And then I kind of went on. My periods were very far apart when I was young, like three months.

00:10:10
So I don't think I dealt with it again until I was in school. And of course, then I came back an early bloomer, one of the very first girls in class who had breasts. So that was a whole thing. And I went to the special bathroom with the wooden doors because that was where the big girls went. That's what floated around a bit.

00:10:29
But you didn't talk about it, you just went through it and you just sort of figured it out. Yeah. Did you talk to your friends about it at all? Did your friends know? Not until junior high.

00:10:44
I think we did kind of know, but I don't remember talking about it. I kept it very much to myself, but everybody knew.

00:10:58
I remember. Are you there, god. It's me, Margaret. Yes, the book. That was really how I learned about periods.

00:11:09
And my mom also gave me a book that was, I don't know, like the Karen Keeping of me type of book or something. And it came with a kit. There was no discussion. It came in the mail. I walked into my bedroom and there it was, a box.

00:11:27
And I opened it up and there was this book, and then there were some samples of pads. That's what I remember. Similar type of experience. And that was it. There was no discussion.

00:11:42
No. You just read the pamphlet. You figured it out. You could read.

00:11:50
You were a little bit earlier than your peers. I think in junior high, I started to of course, then you had all three schools combined, so you blended in better. Yeah. I bet that was a relief. Yes.

00:12:06
Now you're in a very different place. Right. Years pass. Yes. 40 years later.

00:12:12
Yeah, 40 years. Seriously. It's a long time. Yeah. It's the most your life.

00:12:20
If you were to describe where you are in your journey now, I know that you are eight months. It's been eight months since your last period, but you're really in that perimenopause place. Yeah. What is it like for you now? Yeah, I think for me, because most of my perimenopause was the timing of it was very bad luck.

00:12:48
And I wish I had been aware that I was in perimenopause and how it might have been affecting what I was going through. Because when I think of everything I was doing, a pandemic presidential election, a pandemic primary, the COVID this is all when I'm in the midst of it, I had a very difficult friendship that ended in betrayal. That just shattered my whole sense of, do I have any good instincts about anybody? My dearest friend in the world? The moment we figured out that we actually had each other and we hadn't been utilizing each other and we were going through the same thing, she got in a car and 20 minutes down the road she died.

00:13:29
So it's just been like that's been my period, that the whole journey has been just sort of filled with turmoil. And I think there's a lot of things I could have set myself up better for had I prepared to go in. But other things, how could I prepare to be in a pandemic? How can I prepare for my friend to die? Life is going to happen.

00:13:53
But it would have been good to understand what was really going on with my body so I could factor in that to how I'm processing and dealing with things. And I didn't because I didn't think about it till after. And I went, oh, my goodness. That's why this was so heightened. That's the frustrating thing about it.

00:14:10
So I wish I just had more information. Yeah. Well, it's so interesting because I hear that a lot. There are sort of the outside forces that happen at a certain phase of life. Right?

00:14:26
Yes. Pandemic happened for all of us, but we lose people. People are taking care of aging parents or their children are moving into adolescence when they're going into perimenopause jobs change. There are often major life events that happen to coincide with perimenopause. And you're right, if we knew more that some of what we are experiencing could actually be due to the hormonal changes, the structural changes to our brains that are happening at that time, then we might give ourselves a little more space, a grace to go through those things.

00:15:17
So for you, you didn't really know what was going on. You're going through all of these major life events. I'm so sorry. What a tough time. Yeah, it's all happening so fast.

00:15:30
You don't think about it, but, yeah, it was difficult and it did take a toll. And your question was, where am I now? And that is, I feel far into recovery from all of it, which has been great, and I've felt that way for a while. So that's the good thing about it. As turbulent as it was, it was incredibly transformational.

00:15:55
You talk about the physiological changes and the hormonal shifts and they can fluctuate, but what then? The psychological things that brings up in you? Like, you ask, well, what was your puberty? Well, then it does bring it up in a way, and you find yourself facing that younger woman in you. I was looking at her heartbreak and her hopes and dreams and what do I want to take with me into the next phase of my life?

00:16:23
And if I had put more forethought into that, again, if I'd had more knowledge, I would have been more prepared to answer those questions and to not be so vulnerable. I made some mistakes in some ways in how I was vulnerable because I didn't know what I was looking for. But not that you're going to know, but you can give yourself a little bit of structure to, I think, make it safer for you. Yeah, well, let's go back a little. Bit because when did you realize, oh, there might be some intro components that are happening here that can explain some of what I'm going through or that suggest that I can get support that I'm not getting that might help?

00:17:04
When did you realize that you might be perimenopausal? I think it's a weird story I'll try to tell quickly. I had a younger male friend in my life, and that's after the fallout from that and it was just a friendship, but it ended very traumatically. What happened? I realized that my hormones were fluctuating very high during a lot of that.

00:17:31
And when it hit me was when I was on a hike later with this young guy. It was a group hike, and he was in the army, he was like 28 years old. And I am like, super hyper, especially at that time, because I was trying to get over this horrible thing that happened with my friend. So I would just hike 900 miles an hour, 10 miles, but he kept getting behind the hike leader and so he could never keep up with me. Well, he got determined the last 3 miles, he was going to get ahead of that high player, and he was going to really see if he could keep up with me.

00:17:59
I got to the end of it. I beat him by a full three minutes in just 3 miles. He said, how long you been standing there? I said three minutes. He went, oh, my God, you're so fast.

00:18:09
And then he just looked me up and down. You are so fast. And the way he looked at my body, it was just like I was like, oh, that's sex. And that hadn't happened to me in ages. And then it hit me, because a similar thing had happened with my friend, with the fitness and the body and the hormone, and it's like, oh, wait, I'm on some kind of swing and I can feel it.

00:18:38
And it's not all just my life, it's something hormonal. And that's when it really hit me. And I started playing back things. Yeah, when we had a little pre meeting in our pre talk, you thought that menopause was just going to be like a gradual drying up, but it wasn't that. And this sounds like what you're expressing here is that you are having these real peaks, these hormonal peaks.

00:19:06
Yes. And I think that's why I think it's important not to underestimate your own sensuality. Because I had two younger men. I mean, the other guy was 28 respond to me in a very especially him. I was like, I have not had a man in I mean, it's been a long time.

00:19:23
And he was nice. He wasn't doing anything, but I was like, whoa. And so I think on those peaks, you can give off those hormones. You might have people and everyone's different, but just don't underestimate how sensual you. Might feel around the time of what I'm guessing is ovulation, I have found myself really not I haven't felt sexually insatiable.

00:19:54
That would be nice, actually. I'm sure my husband would really appreciate that. But instead, I get like baby lust. Like incredible baby lust. And so I think it comes out for different people in different ways.

00:20:08
And you're right. I think that we do put out different pheromones. I have a similar thing. I mean, I was completely blindsided. I thought this guy was just being friendly.

00:20:18
And then I realized he was really flirting, young guy, really flirting with me. And I was so clueless.

00:20:32
It was a very funny yeah, it was a very funny moment. And I would like to say that it's just because of my magnetic personality, but I do think it was a pheromone issue. I do think I must have been putting out some really awesome chemicals that day.

00:20:53
So peaks and valleys. So that's when you realized, oh, something is really happening here. And what happened? So you got back from the hike. Yes.

00:21:04
So I got on the drive, I think I started to play back my life over the past year and I started to think about some of my giddiness, like being a girl with a crush and just being kind of for lack of a better world, kind of a silly girl. And I'm not really I mean, I haven't let myself be a silly girl in a long time. I mean, that's just not what I do. And I thought about it and I think it had a lot to do with that. And then I would think too, what would come with that though, were crashes.

00:21:40
And I would think about, oh, wait a minute, that was just an irrational amount of grief or sadness that you just suddenly felt like I had what you sort of coincided with the full moon. And I just remember being in tears about this one relationship that was fine at the time. And I think maybe I had some things coming up about some instincts. But at the same time I also remember like a dip in my hormones and my sensuality completely disappeared at that time. So it does crash out and it can be like that for a few weeks, a couple of months.

00:22:17
It varied over that, I think about a two and a half year period. So there's that too. For me it was a peaks and valleys time. And some trips on those valleys, they wouldn't be too bad because they would be reflection to sort of have your sensuality kind of not be a factor. They could be nice, depending on what I was taking to the Valley with me.

00:22:41
I do think that this period has to be useful in some way. Why would we live so much beyond fertility if there weren't some value in it? And that it doesn't just stop also really suggests that there's something useful about the transition. And I think there often is. I think in adolescence there is a usefulness to the ups and downs of those hormonal shits that helps to prepare us for that next phase in life, as painful as it is.

00:23:23
You talk about what do you take to the Valley with you? And it brings up for me the idea of the spiral of recognizing ourselves and honoring ourselves and evaluating of practicing discernment in our lives. Yes. Of truly pausing before we take the next step. Did you have any revelations in those valleys that you can remember right now?

00:24:02
Oh yeah. I think the biggest turnaround for me, for my recovery, I kind of ended up crashing out at Christmas time, Christmas Eve, and I was very glad about something my therapist had said. I was very angry and he said, sometimes anger is misplaced depression. And I realized where it was all coming from. And it had to do with my guilt over Polly and seeing her family and just feeling so helpless.

00:24:27
And that had happened at Thanksgiving and then I had gradually sank down. And as soon as I had that realization, I was kind of able to kind of go, okay, you're just going to have to deal that know, Polly. Is the friend who died. Who died, and you keep wanting to put it on this other situation. You're obsessive.

00:24:45
You don't care about that anymore. This is what it really is. And the kids came. My brother has kids. They came the next day on Christmas, and we had a good time.

00:24:54
They distracted me, but I'm usually always fun Auntie Jamie, even if I'm going through stuff. And I wasn't quite so fun, so it bothered me. And then the unboxing day, we always go to the movies, and I was just really crashed out from just hashing over Holly's death and this thing with this other friend that got attached to it. And we always go to a movie, and I was just on the bed, and my husband knocked on the door, and he said, hey, honey, I'll represent for us. You don't have to get up.

00:25:23
I'll help your brother with the kids. As long as there's one adult per one child, it's all good. And I said, okay, when are you leaving? And he said, Half an hour. I said, okay, give me some time.

00:25:34
And so I laid there, and I was just like, this is one of those moments I just feel like I can't get up, but I know I have just enough strength to get up. And if I don't get up, I'm going to be on a very different path. And so I made myself get up and go to the movies and said, all you have to do is just put on a coat, get in the car, roll into a movie. It ended up being Puss and Boots, which was the perfect thing for me to see. And it really started the whole turnaround for me.

00:26:10
And that's when I really just started dealing with what was really bothering me, when it was an instant. But by the time I got to the spring, about the spring equinox, I was like, okay, I am becoming something new, but something that's me, more me than that's me now. And I think I really coming out of such turmoil from all of that. I really knew what was me and what wasn't. And also just not afraid of my own voice anymore because I'm like, how much fucking worse can it get?

00:26:44
And so I was like, whatever. Here people like me. They don't like me, whatever. But not that I'm not sensitive to other people, but I'm not scared of what people think so much because I'm secure with who I am. Can I just tell you how inspirational that is a beautiful thing to hear.

00:27:01
Okay. Got you. It is a beautiful thing to hear. And I do think that it is a gift of perimenopause if we can accept it and what I hear is how you received it or how you are receiving it because I'm sure it's an ongoing process too. It'd be so simple if we could say all right, I'm done.

00:27:30
Yes, I got it, I've got my certificate on the wall and just saying. That makes me think I do think I do have this part of me that feels like once you get that menopause, once you get that twelve months you should get a certificate, right? Yes, but maybe that's also overstating it too. Maybe it's a little bit like when your period begins, right? Yeah what a beautiful story and I'm.

00:27:59
Glad you got up that day I am too. Can we talk about sex? Yeah, tell me everything well there's a lot to enjoy about your perimenopause and if the hormone swings happen for you or for whoever like they happen for me everything kind of gets like it used like you younger and it's functioning like it's younger I guess I'm talking. About we get all shy, right? So we're talking about the clitoris, the.

00:28:40
Labia, vagina, vagina and all that. So what I noticed, I think, was that the same kind of swelling and the same kind of moisture and wetness and the same kind of that. Orgasm. The same kind of kind of explosions that I was more used to in my twenty s and also the same kind of effort. That's one thing that's nice about sort of getting on the other side.

00:29:07
That orgasms. Don't take quite so long. But when I was young, because there was an intensity to them to really get there and that kind of came back sometimes as well. So it took longer to orgasm. Yes, but that also reflects me when I was younger, so everybody's different, so that could just mean mirroring.

00:29:29
So I'm not sure. Just my own observation. But as I have now gone more into menopause, that seems to be kind of done. I mean, it comes back a little bit, but none of that's happening and hasn't for months in terms of moisture is a little bit more of an issue. Even sometimes, I think, when you feel like you're pretty turned on.

00:29:52
But I've also been surprised. So you always just check, make sure everything's good to go. Because you can't quite always go by how turned on you are or how sexually aroused you are you might feel. I think that's a really important thing that you just said was that we can't always use some of the cues that we had before to know if we're turned on or not. So if wetness is not as much of a cue, if it's not a dependable cue anymore, what are some cues for you?

00:30:30
Thank you for talking about this, it's really important no, what are some cues for you that you are? Is it a mental thing? What is it? For me it's mostly a mental thing being relaxed and feeling very open my husband and I. Our style is my husband's older than I am, so he's 20 years older.

00:30:53
So it's a little bit different style than somebody might have who if we were both 50. So it's very slow and we take our time, but it's also maybe not as frequent as other people. But in between that, we are always holding each other, always kissing each other. Our intimacy in terms of affection is nonstop. I mean, several times a day.

00:31:21
But when we get into sex, that's an afternoon, that's an evening, that's a massage, and that's time spent. And that's been our style for a while. So when we're making love, I haven't noticed a huge difference in the actual act of sex. And I think it's important again to take time just to know you're ready. And for me, again, it's just always that relaxed and openness and the psychological back and forth and the talking.

00:31:55
Does that answer the question? It does answer the question. I mean, so often we put that in foreplay, right? But really it's intimacy. It sounds like what you're talking about with just touch and affection, intimacy, closeness, caring for each other.

00:32:20
It's maybe very different from hot and heavy, rip off your clothes, kind of. Yeah, feel that way. Just make sure you check before you try because you could get hurt.

00:32:37
There are lots of products, lots of. Products to help with. Yeah. Someone I interviewed, Kira Howard, I interviewed in the first season. And I'll actually tag that episode in the show notes for this one.

00:32:53
But her bit of advice was moisturize, moisturize, moisturize, lubricate, lubricate, lubricate, moisturize, moisturize, moisturize. Keep everything, keep all systems supple.

00:33:10
I have to say, I think about it every day as I moisturize my face. And other parts, too. No, moisturize all the parts. The older I get, every my whole body, just constantly, everything gets moisturized. But it also feels good.

00:33:28
It feels good to touch yourself in that way. We are so hard on our bodies that the things that we can do to offer a little care and grace go a long way. What is something that you wish for other people who are going through perimenopause and menopause or a major life and hormonal transition? What do you wish for them? It's a couple of things.

00:33:58
I mean, the one thing that I wish I had had and I think touched on this as we've talked is that knowing what I know now, to really sit down with myself and say, well, what's going to be the most important thing for you going through this kind of transition? And the answer to that is authenticity. And to really be grounded in my most authentic self going in because there's going to be times for me, is this my most authentic self? Am I just experiencing this? To let this go?

00:34:36
And it just feels authentic now because one day it's one thing, a week later it's something. Else. And I'm bringing up this younger girl in me, and I'm saying, well, what do I want to bring here? So having this huge transition where you're going through all these hormonal changes and psychological changes to not have people around you. I mean, you need people around you who know what's going on, to have women who've been through it and people who are authentic to you.

00:35:04
And maybe not always people who tell you what you want to hear, but people who you know you can count on to be honest, whether you agree or not. It's just important to seek that out and to at least have some foundation of authenticity around you and then to seek, like, one thing for me, I got to work with Gen Z at UVAX and a lot of Gen Z actors, and these are new people in my life. And you want to be a little bit careful about new people in your life when you're going through they don't have a context for you. You're brand new. But at the same time, it really opened up a lot of possibilities for me.

00:35:47
And one thing it really freed me of is just any obligation I had to heteronormative roles and that way of going through this. And I've always tried to break out of that. But you just got growing up in Gen X and in the Midwest and just beaten and the media and the romance and the just to be around this. And if I had had non binary when I was no, no gender, just deal with me and not get slammed. It's just the things I've learned from them and how it's freed me up.

00:36:21
Just to say, you know what? Who I'm going to be is my own saying. And it's not defined by any roles that anybody thinks that I should be. It's just defined by who I am and by what identities.

00:36:39
Anyway, that's huge. So huge. A couple of things come to mind from that. I love that you brought up this idea of authenticity, but then also the muddiness around the very concept of authenticity. When you have no solid ground to stand on, how do you know who you are?

00:37:05
Because you don't want to be the sinking person. No.

00:37:12
So it sounds like the strategies that you really adopted there were social strategies. One was looking for people who were having similar experiences or had been through similar experiences or could understand and weren't going to gloss over them. Yes, it's hard to find those people sometimes. How did she find them? I didn't do a great job of it, and that was where my preparation was lacking.

00:37:49
My husband was wonderfully supportive, beautifully supportive, but he knew I was going through a very hard time of trying to figure out who I was in our marriage and who just was trying to figure out a lot of things. And he just said, look, don't feel trapped in your marriage. You just have a wide latitude, figure it out. It was wonderful. But if I'm not educated on perimenopause menopause, neither is he.

00:38:14
So he's at a loss a lot of times how to support me. He's trying his best, but if I don't know what it is, how would he know? And I think then with my friend Holly, we kept thinking, we'll keep in touch, we'd see each other, and then months would go by, and we wouldn't. And if I had thought about that going in, I would have been like, I will be on the phone with Holly every Sunday. I would have made it a part of my no, this is my perimenopause strategy, is always checking in with Holly.

00:38:44
And we didn't do it until, it know, really kind of too late. And what happened in that vacuum was somebody stepped in who had an agenda. And it caught me off guard again, because I didn't understand that at my age, a younger, good looking man, how could he have that kind of agenda or any agenda. Obviously, he just thinks I'm cool. And that friendship just ended up it really hurt because it was a friendship.

00:39:12
And I think as a Gen X woman, I think growing up we did it was that sort of When Harry Met Sally bullshit of, well, men and women can't really be friends. And I've always thought that my whole life. And it's always, like, so many times bitten me. Like, men will get me with the friendship because it's undefined, but then we'll have to play the heteronormatives male female roles, and then we don't get to talk about the psychology. And so when I took on this friend, I just say, oh, my God, this is a millennial guy.

00:39:42
So he gets it, and he just thinks I'm this really cult old lady, and isn't this nice? And then I knew I had a crush, but I didn't get that from so then I became, as a woman, very hyper aware of his humanity, right? So I'm like, I will keep that to myself. But I had that giddiness and that silliness and those things I couldn't hide. And long story short, I bought a real friendship where I poured out my heart and soul and also talked about this issue of friendship with men and how a boss had hurt me.

00:40:14
It wasn't even a romantic, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And, boy, at the one afternoon, all of that got used against me, and my friend became somebody. I didn't even know who he was. And I never went from feeling so young and vibrant and, oh, my God, here's the validation for my silly young girl self who kept getting her heart broken. This guy thinks I'm to, oh, my God, I'm really old, and he was trying to manipulate me into something and make me fully responsible for it.

00:40:49
And the thing was, it's like, well, if you hadn't been manipulating you, I don't know what would have happened. That's why I'm saying be careful about what you're going through. Because when that young woman came up, she wanted to be touched and she wanted to go back and relive something that she didn't get to have. I had the wrong person in front of me. I thought I had a friend, and it turned out, no, I had someone who just had that agenda and who went as far to tell me he was in love with me and then just ran out of the house.

00:41:15
But it happened so fast, I actually went into physiological shock. I fell on the floor. And then that person, for all intents and purposes, really never spoke to me again, would never talk to me about what happened. And it just made me go, wow. This friendship that I thought was one of the most validating, beautiful things to have gone through at this time in my life.

00:41:36
I look back at a year and a half, particularly the last six months, and it's just been an exercise in my humiliation the whole time. So then to take that into, I have no idea who I can trust. I stood on the edge, but who. Up with this know? And I'm like, oh, my goodness, I can't trust know that I haven't known for years.

00:41:56
And it really was difficult. And just as I started to kind of heal from that, holly and I connected in this amazing way. I went home. We had the conversation of our lives. 5 hours, drinking, sangria.

00:42:07
We're talking about life. We start to talk about mothers and we realize, like, oh, not only are we both going through menopause, but we have a whole psychology of stuff we can get into that we've never talked to about. Oh, my God, I've known her since I was four. And then, God, we hold each other and say and I knew I was going to call her. She was going to call me 20 minutes down the road.

00:42:29
She died in the car crash. And I didn't know what I had. And that is the one thing I do, just look back with so much regret, like what happened to that friendship. And I think it was my fault. I think over the years I let some things slip, and that's still a regret that I struggle with with that.

00:42:56
But that's the big stuff. It is the big stuff. And thank you for sharing both of those stories. I think we all have them. I think you're not alone.

00:43:10
It feels so lonely. And that's the mistake I made, too, with the other friend. I didn't talk about what happened for a long time. And you have to talk, even if you think I did something wrong or if you end up on the floor of physiological shock, you need to reach out and talk to people, even if you don't understand what happened. You just reach out to people who love you and will listen to you.

00:43:35
I keep looking for the parallels between adolescence and perimenopause, and I may be over seeking them, so I will own that bias. Yeah. But I think of the people I had crushes on and that I was attracted to as friends and as romantic crushes when I was twelve to, say, 17. Right. Yeah.

00:44:01
And there were some wonderful people in there. Thank you for being in my life at that time. But there are also some crushes that was like, I was really looking for something in me that I felt that I would get from this person. And I've had similar types of attractions to people and concepts and ideas in this time, that everything is useful and everything there are so many wonderful moments, but sometimes six months down the line, I look back and I think, oh. Yes.

00:44:38
That was very sparkly. Very sparkly thing, that you probably needed to feel a little more sparkly in that moment. You needed to engage with that giddy girl in you. And when you find someone who can bring that out, even for a moment, it's intoxicating. But it also did reconnect you with that part of you.

00:45:03
So I don't want to dismiss. I'm not trying to have toxic positivity around that. No. And it did make me go back. Like, it was funny.

00:45:11
It's interesting with you. Talk about the boys, who you're attracted to. When I told Holly the story, finally, a few months later, the first thing she said was like, he sounds just like your first boyfriend, this friend of yours. And I went, I didn't even think and I went, oh, God, they even look a little I was like, oh, I hadn't even thought of know, like you said, I needed that girl brought up, and I do think I needed her brought up in a really strong way, because I needed to really decide of her dreams. And some of those are dreams that I've struggled with all my life.

00:45:45
Acting, writing, being a creative person, do I still want to continue those dreams? And also having to sort of face, why did you let those go? What happened? So I did need to really see her in a big way and have a long conversation with her about some of those big things and what I was going to take with me. So, yeah, absolutely.

00:46:10
It was definitely part of my transformation. Just, I wish it had been a little jet her, but I didn't there's. No fun in that.

00:46:25
And colleague, I'm so sorry that you lost such a dear friend, too. Yeah, she was one of the most authentic people ever, and sometimes the authenticity was hard to take, or what was coming at you was like the other things as well. But it was who she was in the moment. But she was wise and just so sensitive, and she was just really an amazing person. And I didn't know what I had until it was gone.

00:46:57
And I was like, oh, my God. I should have always just had her by my side from the time we were four. I should have never let her go. Well, it sounds like you didn't let her go. No.

00:47:09
That you just moved in your own directions for a while. Yeah. I'm glad you're able to reconnect. Yeah, I am too. Do you believe in an afterlife of any kind?

00:47:22
I absolutely do. And I'll tell you why. Because I was trying to write I wrote this long blog. It was her obituary. And I just threw up because I wanted to just tell everything I knew about her life.

00:47:32
And I got to the point, I was like, I can't finish this. This is crap. I'm a crap writer, blah, blah, blah. And it was like 230 in the afternoon in October. And my husband goes, Honey, honey, honey, there's an owl.

00:47:43
There's an owl out here and I want an owl. So I come out, it's 230. And I had vaguely remembered there were jays squawking because they don't like it when there's a prey bird around. So I come and then all the jays kind of disappeared and the owl looked at me and just settled all its feathers and just stared at me. And prey birds don't like to be looked at.

00:48:03
And it was just on the branch of the tree across the driveway. And I'm like, at two, three in the afternoon. And I looked at that and I thought, I think that's hungry. And I noticed that the bird's back was to me, and it had its neck you know how owls can turn all the way around? Then the second I saw, I noticed that the bird in its mind, I heard it go, you want to see what I can do?

00:48:24
And it rolled its head one way around, says, Watch again. It did it again. It's like, let's do it one more time. And it came back around and I laughed on cute bitch. You made me laugh.

00:48:32
And I knew it was her. So we stood there for a long time with, like, ten minutes, and you just don't get that with an owl. And so finally we went to the house and I sat down and of course I was able to write. And about half an hour later I went, I wonder if the owl is still there. And I looked and she was still there, looked me in the eye, looked up and flew, tapped the roof and then flew away.

00:48:54
So I've always known that was and then my husband later said, oh, I think that was Ollie. I said, yeah, me too. So, yes, I do believe in yeah. Even now you're talking about it, there's an engagement with that friendship and with her in honoring her now and in cherishing that friendship and the person she was, yeah. And I hear her voice all the time.

00:49:26
I was sort of taking her around right after she died at little places like in the Shenandoah. And she's like, well, this trail is nice, but haven't you done this four or five times? And I said, okay. So then I went to something totally different. And for a while, I was having trouble sharing my sense of humor about because there's trust issues.

00:49:43
And then she was, Come on, make a joke. Come on, you can do it. Oh, come on, you have something funny. So I just would hear her encouraging me or doing stuff, like always getting to try something new, because that was a big thing with her. So I do try new things in honor of her.

00:49:58
Well, every time I see an owl, which isn't very often, of course, but every time I do, I'll think of you and I'll think of Holly. Now. Thank you. That'll be a nice thing. The other thing that you mentioned was your relationship with Gen Z over at UVA Acts.

00:50:15
Yes. What is that? Tell us a little more about that. So, UVA Acts, basically, it's a diversity equity inclusion program. It's funded by the provost, and it is basically mostly for faculty and staff.

00:50:29
Some grad students do get involved, but it's interactive theater and role playing and improvisation that focuses on inclusive teaching and hiring practices. So we'll do scenes, we'll do role playing, where they'll get to ask questions, the characters, and it's been very rewarding. It also does a lot of microaggression intervention techniques, and it allows people to come into the audience and try it for themselves in a safe environment with actors. So it's been very rewarding. But that's the kind of work that we do.

00:51:01
I have two daughters who are both Gen Z, and they are lovely, lovely human beings. And they are also very uncompromising yes. In their evaluation of equity, of justness of authenticity and integrity. I'm so grateful for them. And as you speak about going into perimenopause with all of those hormonal shifts, we know that our brains shift so that we are less tolerant, at least for some time.

00:51:50
And that's often seen because it's not we're going into gender right now because it's not a feminine value intolerance we are supposed to be compliant and infinitely patient and gentle and loving and kind, nurturing. And yes, I'm a heart centered soul. Like, I do strive for those things just because they are well, maybe I don't know how much of it is conditioning and how much of it is that remains to be seen. But I do think that having less tolerance is a great gift for affecting change, calling for change, seeing pathways to change. And so partnering with Gen Z, who have such clarity about so many of these issues that we still have a lot of When Harry Met Sally conditioning about yes is such a brilliant partnering.

00:53:00
Yes. And it makes me think, why are my kids leaving home now? Yeah, that's a great time for you to have them around. Yeah, well, because it was interesting. I was with a group of people, I was the only Gen Xer in a room with boomers.

00:53:15
And they had some of the stereotypical complaints about Gen Z. And I understood their point on a couple of things. But I said, I think the best thing, at least for me to do what I feel I should do as my generation, as opposed to when we came up, growth and boundaries, when we had that in our lives, we had to bend to the will of institutions, and we had to just get through it. And you had to figure it out how to get through. But nothing was going you couldn't say no.

00:53:43
They can say no. No, this isn't how we want to live this day to day. I'm not going to work here if I have to be here all the time. They say no, like you said, the authenticity. But sometimes when you're a young adult, you don't always know the difference between growth and boundaries.

00:54:01
And I think as older generations, what you can do is just ask those questions to help guide them through those moments rather than just know, oh, you can't be like that, or you can't. I think there's always a good conversation that you can have there. And so with being with Gen Z, I find myself just asking questions and learning, maybe challenging a little bit, but I don't tell them a lot of how to be or what's right and wrong about them. I don't make those judgments. No, you support their efforts by encouraging curiosity.

00:54:36
Yeah. So I love that our conversation about menopause has gone into talking about the afterlife and how to support social change. It is all big stuff because you're going through big stuff changes. So, yeah. Thank you so much for having this conversation with me.

00:54:57
I feel really good. I feel really happy and yeah, so. I appreciate here's my call to action for this episode. That's what they call it when I'm trying to get you to do something, I want you to do something, and that is to share your story. So if you would like to share an experience of your midlife delights, agony, or just plain humor, you can leave me a voice memo on my new website, Posigopodcast.com.

00:55:25
There's a tab on the right side of the website that says something like, leave me a voice memo. And you can you can just record a voice memo for me right there, and I'll get it. And if you feel comfortable having me share your voice on the pod, then I can share that with everyone. It's so nice to hear other people's voices. But if you don't feel comfortable having me share your voice, I can just anonymously share your story.

00:55:54
It'll be great to have your stories on the Pause To Go podcast. All right, stay curious, y'all. Thank you for listening to the Pause to Go podcast. Special thanks to Codebase Coworking and WTJU. Radio for their support.

00:56:12
This has been an awkward Sage production.