Shae Elise Allen on early menopause, the alchemy of midlife transformation, and finding self-worth at every stage of life

Shae Elise Allen- Pause to Go Episode 5

Bree: It is Thanksgiving week in the United States. And I just want to thank you for listening to the Pause To Go podcast. And also to let you know that I cherish the many emails, texts, and messages on Instagram and reviews on Apple Podcasts. I really love sharing these conversations, especially when they are meaningful to you.

So please keep the feedback coming. And if you really love the podcast, share it with a friend. One of the things I love most about this form is that it is available free to anyone with a computer or a smartphone. My friend Chris introduced me to podcasts almost nine years ago. And that one share has opened up a whole world of storytelling, relationships, and rich conversations for me.

So thanks for that share, Chris. And thanks for listening, everyone.

I've just returned from my solo retreat in Mexico, where I was creating structures for a personal unbecoming, by which I mean a deconditioning, taking the time to recognize patterns or thoughts and behaviors that are no longer of service. It was a phenomenal and gently transformative experience, which I'll share more about in the months to come.

 So, I'm creating a blueprint workshop for you all to make space for your own lovely unbecoming. And you'll definitely be hearing more about that in the month ahead. If you're interested in being in the beta group for this workshop beginning in January, shoot me a message, and I can tell you more about that. 

So while I was away, I found my thoughts returning to this particular conversation with my guest today. Shae Elise Allen and I met on Instagram. We had a para-social relationship that turned into a real relationship, and I really loved her approach to sharing information about women, sexuality, and aging, and our conversation did not disappoint.

We talked about the alchemy of change, of embracing our baby crones, about the patriarchy and the monolithic porn industry, and all of that just scratches the surface of our chat. Shae joined me from Melbourne, Australia, where she is a sexual wellness educator, speaker, somatic coach, and transformational guide, supporting women at midlife.

Enjoy this conversation with Shae Elise Allen. 

I'm so happy that we have this opportunity to chat around the world. 

Shae Elise: Yeah. I love it. 

Bree: I have been following you on Instagram for a little while now and have just loved the way that you speak of midlife and empowerment in midlife. It's really inspirational. Just woman to woman, thank you for doing that. 

Shae Elise: That's so beautiful to receive Bree. And thank you so much for saying, because you know, it, it was really responding to, such a deep, intuitive need to start speaking my truth around this stage of life. So to hear that it's being received is just wonderful and beautiful.

So thank you. 

Bree: And you have the best title on Instagram that I've seen yet. And that is the Midlife Pleasure Alchemist. 

Shae Elise:  I love it. And I chose it because, well, I went through an early menopause, so, you know, for me, the experience of menopause came suddenly and really was quite brutal in terms of like me not being ready for it.

And me just feeling like, what does this mean? You know, what does this mean about my identity and my relationship to my body? And I love alchemy, you know? I'm a Scorpio woman. I'm a quadruple Scorpio. All my personal planets are in Scorpio. So it's, yeah, quite intense. And just that transformative piece is just so strong for me.

So, you know, in terms of alchemizing, my experience of something, it just is something that is, I live for it. So when I hit menopause and, I wasn't expecting it and was finding it really challenging. And, I didn't know where to go with it. I didn't know who to talk to about it. It's the undercurrent that was really beneath all that was always the willingness to transform, so the midlife pleasure Alchemist, you know, was born from that. 

Bree: How did you find out that you were in perimenopause and about to go through menopause? What were the signs for you? How did you find out? 

Shae Elise: Yeah. That's so for me; it started with a couple of things.

So the main symptoms for me were my irregular periods. So my periods started jumping around really erratically and quite suddenly. So this happens so differently for, you know, for different women. But for me, it was sudden and, you know, my periods would be like, I would bleed for longer, and then I would bleed for shorter. And then I wouldn't bleed for 45 days, and then I'd bleed in two weeks. So all of the erratic bleeding was, was a big part of it and also feeling the heat in my body. So interestingly for me, I look back, and in my late thirties, I went through this really strange period of blushing. And, I'm not normally a blusher, but I went through this period of like, just heat rising to my face and feeling like, the world could read me, you know like I felt so quite vulnerable to the world.

And, in my interactions with people, this physiological thing would happen where the heat would rise and I could feel myself blushing, and it was, it was like, it was a problem at the time, you know, that's what that felt like a problem at the time. And, I look back now, and I realized that that was the beginning of my perimenopausal period, and my hormones shifting and, that whole experience of like, I wasn't hot flushing at that time, but it was like, that was the beginning of it, you know? 

Bree: Yes

Shae Elise: And then, you know, it didn't take too much longer, maybe six to 12 months after that, the hot flashes started to really come. And I remember the first one that I had, and I was having lunch with a work colleague, and all of a sudden, like the heat started rising, and I started glazing over, and it felt so intense.

And I didn't know what it was because I didn't expect at that stage of my life that I would be perimenopausal to the point that these symptoms were just so intense. So, yeah. So initially, I was thinking that there was something really wrong with me. Like I felt like there was something wrong with my body.

Really wrong, actually, because it felt so unusual and so scary. And I remember saying to my friends that I was having lunch with like what's happening to my face. Like, am I red? Like what, what do my eyes look like right now? Are they, are they glazed over? And, yeah. And she was sort of giving me feedback because I was trying to make sense of it. So they were the first initial sorts of experiences that I was having around perimenopause. And for me, like, you know, for some women, perimenopause can last for ten years, but for me, it just lasted well intensely for a couple of years. And then I stopped bleeding. 

Bree: I've been thinking about how we experience these symptoms and --exactly what you said-- about like, "What's wrong with me? There must be something wrong with me that this is happening." It's something I've heard a lot, and I've maybe even started to feel. And I have been curious because I also feel like there's such a stigma around aging and menopause and perimenopause that I wonder, which was scarier for you, that it might be something that you didn't know what it was? That could be something that was wrong with you or perimenopause at that time -I know now that your answer is probably not menopause, but then, was there, was it scary? 

Shae Elise: Yeah. That's such a good question. And I'm really feeling into it as you ask it, because at the time my mind went to there's something wrong with me and perimenopause and menopause is so heavily pathologized.

So from that perspective, it's so interesting that when you talk to a lot of women about their experience of this, that they feel like that there's something wrong with them. And I think the reason why that happens, or the reason what happened to me, was because there was, there's not enough discussion. There is shame associated with it. There's so much shame. Like the word menopause just felt like this heavy, frumpy, horrible word that I didn't want to be, you know, at the time it was like, I was repelled by it.  I rejected it because I was afraid of aging and what that meant and all the conditioning around it, you know, like what did it mean for me to be a menopausal woman?

Well, at the time, I felt like it meant that I was old before my time and the conditioning, the cultural conditioning around women aging and not being seen and not being sexy and drying up and all of that cultural narrative that is just so disempowering was very alive in me. And yeah. Like when I talk about it now, I can feel my body contracting because  I'm feeling back to that, and I didn't want that.

So that was the very beginning of my experience of perimenopause was; I don't want to be here. Like I'm not ready for this, press the pause button. I will say, though, that my experience of feeling like there was something wrong with me was very real as well. So you know that whole, oh God, you know, like I'm, I'm in my early forties, I'm 40, 41.

Shae Elise: And shit, is there something wrong with me, you know? Like what's, I don't, you know, I want to stay well, I want to stay healthy. I want to be vital. So that was also a fear --

Bree: I can imagine. And, and it is interesting that we do have a cultural perspective of aging, the aging process, making us less vital so that if we have indicators of aging, that somehow it means that we're not healthy and vital and capable in the ways that we want to be.

It's just very; it's very interesting. I'm trying to wrap my head around it every day.

Shae Elise: I really, yeah. I really feel you and I really resonate 

Bree: Just today. I've had two people, two lovely women who are; one is I think just post-menopausal and the other is perimenopausal. Both of them wrote to me and said, I, I love what you're doing. And I am really grateful for it, but I cannot listen to anything about menopause or perimenopause because it is traumatizing.

I'm not ready to talk about it or deal with it or understand it. And, oh, Shae, it just, it breaks my heart because I really see that as a cultural conditioning. And I understand it. I resisted it. I joke about how much I have resisted talking about perimenopause and menopause. And even now, I'm 48. I am certainly in the throws of perimenopause, although I don't have all of the classic symptoms. I had a very brutal pre-menstrual period this month. And, even I then was saying, well, this is not, this is not  hormonal. I'm not, I'm not, I'm not really frustrated and irritated with everyone and crying every other moment because I'm hormonal it's because it's situational.

I was, I was so reluctant to admit it. I'm so glad that you shared your experience of an early menopause and that those early feelings of this blushing. I'm just picturing you blushing at all of these

Shae Elise: -- really awkward moments. Like it was, it was really hard to hold myself so deeply in that, you know, I had to dig deep and just give myself so much compassion because it was really awkward at the time. It was really awkward. 

Bree: Well, I love awkward moments, so 

Shae Elise: yeah, there's so much like growth and, and beauty in it, you know, and that, that vulnerability, you know, it's so it's precious.

It really is and i look back on it. And I just think, oh, wow. It's almost like, being a prepubescent girl, you know, and, and coming in and blossoming into a woman it's like that experience of me was blushing was my, experience of blossoming into mid-life into menopause. Like it was a similar kind of experience.

Yeah. 

Bree: You also call yourself a baby crone on your Instagram, which just makes me smile. It's funny because as you just said, you know, blossoming into midlife, I saw this flower opening and this baby crone in the, in the middle of it, like Thumbelina or something, 

Shae Elise: emerging. Yeah. I love, I love baby crone and I coined that term because, well Maga, which is the, the archetypal stage between mother and crone, was horrifically, taken by, you know who, so, you know, it was, it was something that I, you know, and I, I really wanted to fight that and I just want know, you know, this is a womanly word and I'm going to keep using it. But at the same time, I was just like, you know, words have vibrations. And just for now, just it, just leave it and open to this baby crone. And I really love it, but mostly because crone is considered, you know, like the gray haired, old woman. You know, that's the earth mother that has her feet on the earth, and that has really let go of, all of those, all of that conditioning around what she should look like.

but at the same time, we live in a very modern world. Like, you know, no one has been a crone before in this day and age, you know, like it's, it's a complex world that we live in and, and things are so different to how they were 10 years ago, 20 years ago, let alone 50 and a hundred years ago. So I feel that really claiming this new version of what a baby crone and who a baby crone is well, a baby crone is me, you know, and I perhaps don't look or act like someone initiated into menopause would or should, but that's why I want to stand up and talk about it because it's, it has been so deep in the doldrums of shame, you know, that, it's important to stand up and say, well, look, you know, early menopause happens. And it's an initiation and it is, an incredibly powerful experience. Well, if we come to it from the heart and if we come to it with the right mindset and the right, perspective around,seeing this as a beautiful opportunity to evolve into our true selves as women. Yeah. So I think, 

yeah, that's the heart --lead from the heart. 

Shae Elise: Yeah, absolutely.

Bree: And experience from the heart. I love that you just said that because I feel like just before this time, certainly for me, for many women that I know we are, so in our heads, I certainly feel like I get stuck in my head. And, and I feel like because I'm a mother because I'm loving because I have healthy relationships that, of course I'm leading from the heart, but--

not always. And I would imagine that that's a big part of your work is helping people to tap into that 

Shae Elise: oh, absolutely. I mean, we're so conditioned to be in our head and to make sense of our body through our intellect. And, you know, we're also so conditioned to only trust what can be measured as well and what can be evaluated. Well, I mean, I do believe that there are ways that we can do, you know, action research pieces and do qualitative research that enables us to understand our experience of the body more deeply. But the truth is, is that the body is a great mystery and the body is our connection to, to the cosmos, to all of creation.

We're not given permission to really connect with ourselves and trust that aspect. And I really believe that the heart is a huge part of that. But just also listening to the body and being aware of what the body needs and, and what the body is telling us.

And at midlife, at menopause, perimenopause, whatever stage you're at in this journey, the body's messages become louder and more intense than ever before. I mean, I've birthed, I physically birthed a baby and that's obviously an experience that's quite similar in many ways, but what I think is different about menopause and in a lot of ways more powerful is the fact that yeah, It's about you, you know, it's, it's solely about you. So, when we birth, there's a, there's a baby that comes out of that and the energy goes into the baby and the baby is, the central piece to that initiation . But, as a woman, as a person going through perimenopause and menopause, there's nothing to hide from, you know, like it's all exposed.

And it's one of the reasons why a lot of women shut down because there's a missing permission piece there that we are safe to explore this. And that's one of the things that really inspires me to keep speaking and keep sharing my story and keep holding the space for these conversations as well, because otherwise, with the conditioning that we live with in this world, you know, like the domination of the porn industry and the mainstream media and what that tells us about how we feel about our bodies. It's a heavy load. It's such a heavy load. So to be able to find the space in that, to open and come together and connect and talk authentically about our relationship to our body. And what's real has never been more important. 

Bree: So how do we do more of that? How do we keep, how we create the container, the opportunity, the connections to help us feel that sense of safety that's so necessary.

To move forward in a truly embodied state. 

Shae Elise: Yeah. It's such a good question because it is a huge repatterning, Bree, you know, like it's, it's a, it's an enormous repatterning that requires us to really think about ourselves and our place in the world in a different way, it takes courage and it takes an enormous amount of vulnerability. So I think vulnerability is a really huge piece, because we haven't really felt collectively, well, we haven't at all felt collectively safe to be in our bodies as women. So let alone be in our bodies at perimenopause. You know, when all the shaming around aging is just still so alive and so in our face.

So of course, it's natural to want to protect ourselves from that and shut down, rather than to open and faiths it. And I really feel, that we need to come together as women to do that. You know, we need to hold spaces and have conversations like this, where other women listen and receive the transmission and receive the permission slip.

And, you know, in some ways I don't like that saying, but at the same time, it's like we do, we actually are at that point in history where we do need to give one another bat, to build a culture that is strengthened. And that is beyond, what we've been facing.

So, you know, from the perspective of, coming to the body,, there's a commitment piece as well, like a commitment to, and it's a maturing as well, a maturing of understanding that, you know, we don't have to meet all these external goals and, all these external perceived expectations.

and actually just come back to the heart, come back to our authentic truth and to live from that current. Yeah, it's a practice. You know, it's not something that just drops in like a bolt of lightning. It's, you know, and it's actually alchemy, you know, there's a descent, there's a darkness that, that we go to when we let go of the conditioning and, there's a grief when we let go of all of these perceived expectations of who we are, who we should be, how we show up in the world, and it's really that dark, that descent is about really nourishing the fertile ground, to emerge in a new way. 

Bree: Oh, this is so beautiful, even though the word permission is so laden, the permission to grieve and to descend into that dark place for a while to recognize it as part of a process, a process of growth, of nourishing, is so beautiful. We do get caught up in these words. I mean, we've been through several of them just today, whether it's, crone or shame or permission. Right. And, and it's interesting because what I love about the way you are talking about this process, this tuning in, this unfolding, this alchemy is that we take these things. We take these concepts because we've wrapped our heads around them from a conditioned perspective, they get very small, they're flattened out. They're shallow as concepts, but given this space to recontextualize them, to re-explore them and ourselves in relation to them, then even those concepts that we sort of roll our eyes at because they've taken on a cultural meaning that no longer resonates.

Even those concepts in this new paradigm, are absolutely invaluable and such a, a rich part of that growth. 

Shae Elise: I think in that is our empowerment, that's where our empowerment resides in, in the willingness to transform in the willingness to go to those depths, and being with the fear of course, be with the grief, be with all of those emotions that, we've been conditioned to reject. That's deep work but this is the birth of the crone. This is the birth of that deeper wisdom is knowing that you can descend safely and that you can emerge 

Bree: and having a good circle of women to, to lean on, to share with, to guide us is a pretty big part of stepping into that dark unknown, too. It can definitely help along the way.

Shae Elise: Oh yes, it really is. It's essential, and that's the work. Yeah, that's the work that, you know, you're doing that I'm doing that so many women are doing at the moment is, cultivating. A space for women to come together and to learn, because there's a real education piece in a world where, we've been so conditioned to deny all this stuff.

Bree: So you're working with a number of women who are just in the thick of this, who are in this place. What are you hearing from them? What, what are you discovering from them that gives you deeper insight into your own process? Or maybe it's just a revelation. What are you discovering from them?

Shae Elise:  There's so much, you know, like there's, so there's so many different, elements at play. I think the main theme that I hear is, the struggle to show up in a world, where there's an expectation, that we show up in a certain way. Like it's, you know, goal oriented linear world that when we move into this stage of life, you know, it's like being a square peg in a round hole, you know, like it's like, well, I don't fit in this way anymore.

Shae Elise: And just then questioning so much. And it's usually, around. You know, like I'm struggling with my communication with, with refining, my boundaries with, expressing myself -- I'm rageful, you know, I'm so rageful and I don't know where to put that rage. I don't know where to put that energy. I'm grief-stricken and I need to go to work today and I have to show up and fulfill this obligation at a time when I'm feeling really disoriented in my body and in my place in the world.

So, I would say that's sort of like the main overarching theme, but that can, that can be applied to so many different aspects of life, just around identity shifting and what that means. And, and that a lot of women make this identity shift about their self-worth. So, it's like aging all of a sudden becomes, you know, am I, am I worthy?

Shae Elise: Am I worthy? Because I'm not fitting into this way of doing things like I'm not prepared to show up in this generating linear fashion anymore. So what does that say about my worth or I'm my body's changing and my lubrication patterns have changed and, I don't want penetrative sex at the moment or anymore.

What does that say about my self-worth? so it's really navigating, this initiation, and supporting women to understand and reframe all of that in relation to themselves. And to remember that the way we view ourselves as worthy, is in response to a highly conditioned, patriarchal culture.

Bree: Oh, that's hitting hard today.

Shae Elise: it's so deep. 

Bree: I mean, I do think about worthiness a lot, and I do think about identity a lot, but I had not really thought about how we are so conditioned to tie our worthiness so completely to our identity and then when we have a shift in identity, it's like an earthquake to our feelings of worthiness.

Hm. Oh 

Shae Elise: yeah. It's huge and I'm still navigating that, you know, and I think we all still navigate it ongoing because it's the world that we live in and, and I often wonder, does it ever end? And I think this whole experience of, midlife, this, this experience of menopause that happens to our bodies and our spirit, is a --I've lost my train. 

Bree: That's fine. It's that worthiness thing. 

Shae Elise: It's just, it's about what

Bree: eats you up. It takes 

Shae Elise: away all the thoughts that --

Bree: interview's over. We're done.(Laughter.) 

Shae Elise: Yeah. I think that's actually what I was going to say actually, is that all of that, all of that unworthiness that, is felt throughout other stages of our lives, you know, that, as we, as we grow and evolve through the other archetypal stages of, you know, like when we come into our first menstruation.

And then, you know, as we sort of blossom into maiden and our sexual being, and then, we moved through the mother stage, whether we birth physically or not, you know, that creative stage and that, that, experience of learning how to self-parent as well is, is there's so much well for me anyway, there was so much doubt throughout those stages of my life, so much questioning of my worth. And, you know, that's, that's a personal piece around my own childhood trauma and, and, and the experiences that I had throughout my life that have had me constantly questioning that. And then, you know, you reach menopause, when there's a story about aging, you know, we don't see versions of ourselves as midlife women in the media.

Shae Elise: And, you know, there's a huge, huge, worth piece there that, is so confronting and, you know, it brings up all of the old stuff as well. So, you know, in terms of the descent and what we go through and how we alchemize, that for me, it's been huge and I'm still, I'm still living it. I'm still navigating it.

I'm navigating it with a really strong framework. So I'm able to, really guide myself through this well, but the actual experiences of losing my footing are definitely still happening 

Bree: I mean, honestly, they should happen. And I keep thinking about how we are conditioned to perfectionism, right?

We are conditioned to, think that to succeed, or perhaps even it's returning to the feeling of worthiness, right? That, that we're like on top of this mountain and are on the summit and have not stumbled since two thirds of the way up and that it feels good and that everything is perfect and that we love it.

And it's fine. The journey is where so much of the growth is. It is in the stumbling that we are truly the crone. That we are truly wise. And, and that we gain that wisdom that we can share, that we can demonstrate that we can learn, that we can keep growing. 

Shae Elise: And absolutely it's, you know, it's, it's so, so true.

You know, that is absolutely where the gold is, in the permission. And the willingness to do that, to stumble to fall, to be seen in the vulnerability it's just gold in so many ways. And I've just also been thinking, in addition to that --myself, like at this stage of life, is that, you know, there's a big part of me at the moment that just wants to say yes to ease and flow and, and enjoy and, and a real resistance to pushing shit uphill, you know, such a huge resistance to it.

And, you know, and, and when I do find myself doing it, like, sometimes finding it hard to voice it, you know, because there's that self-worth piece again, like what, you're not willing to do the hard work. You're not willing to get your hands dirty and to do things that don't feel right, or that are hard.

But for me at the moment, there's a real balance going on with this absolute honoring. And there will always be from an alchemical perspective and from a soul spirit perspective, an absolute honoring of the stumbles of the willingness to be vulnerable, if the pain of the grief of all of that. and then there's the element of just also, well, how can I choose ease and how can I choose flow and how can I choose grace?

Shae Elise: And. Yeah. And, and actually really opening and being gentle with myself in this desire for, a life of more flow. And this is just a personal piece for me, you know, coming from the life that I've led and the, and the background that I've had, which, you know, I've had some big challenges in my life. Yeah.

So it's vulnerable for me to even, really look to that light and that ease and flow and grace, and, and be seen in choosing that and wanting it. This is the alchemical journey, just being on the precipice of that, you know, of, of actually just, I feel like I am standing on the top of the mountain, actually, and looking over the other side of it at the moment and just, and just feeling vulnerable in that. It's the dawn stage of, of the alchemical journey where we see the light and it's like, ah, yeah.

Bree: It just takes courage to do that. And I think that even brings us back to those feelings of worthiness. You were talking about where you are. I know that part of my stuff is that I, I am often afraid. I am afraid to receive to relish and savor moments of ease. I have such a limiting belief that's that says, like, if you're not working, then you're not worthy. And so just, as you were saying, you're sick of pushing shit up the mountain or up the hill. It's yeah, I, I hear that. I just want to recognize and appreciate the courage that it takes to stand up there on top of the mountain with the wind blowing and just feel the sun on your face.

I mean, that's so much, 

Shae Elise: it is, it's such an emotional image, isn't it? Like I'm visualizing it at the moment. It's like, it's such a vulnerable, emotional image of just our holding. Holding myself in that, and just also feeling very anchored to the earth because of the work that I've done. So I think, in terms of the challenges and the descent that we talked about, it really like it it's a spiral down into the earth and that anchors us, it anchors us into the earth so that we can grow and face the sun and not fall over in the wind.

It's the, it's the process that we move through. Yeah. That helps us to, to blossom into our, into our truth, into our authenticity and, into our grace.

Bree: So now you've taken that. Spiraling into the descent, into the earth, into the darkness. You've taken us up to the apex of the mountain.

Shae Elise: yeah. 

Bree: What a journey! I'm going to ask you what is one thing that you think that people who are going through perimenopause should know or do that? We'll give it a caveat, which is -- in this moment, what is the one thing that comes to mind for you? 

Shae Elise: to remember that what you fear about aging is a story. It's a cultural, wounding.

So it's a story that is so thick. That most women don't even realize . It's something that, you know, this whole concept of losing libido and the middle-age spread and, and the getting old and all of the negative stories around what that means, what that actually means in terms of our worth and our identity.

It's a story. And there is an experience of life and of our bodies that is way beyond that. And it's, it's evolutionary for us as, as women to come together and to really know that and understand that and embody that is so transformative. so that's really. The piece that I really love to impart is to trust that we are at a stage in history at the moment where, you know, menopause, I see as one of the last feminist frontiers, I really see it as an opportunity to own our power in a way that we never have before.

And I have a vision of that into the future that is just extraordinary, but it's happening now. It's happening right now. It's happening in this conversation that we're having 

Bree: that gave me chills. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Shae Elise: I'm really excited. I'm excited to be alive and I'm excited to be a menopausal woman at this time in history because there's so much, permission and possibility so much more than there ever has been before.

Bree: So how can people find you? 

Shae Elise: Yes. I work with women all over the world. my website is shaeelise.com and I am a coach. So I coach women through, their experience at this stage of life. I'm a sexuality educator, so I help women to reconnect to their bodies and understand the truth of this sexuality beyond the mainstream narrative.

You know, there's so much more to understand about, about sexuality. In terms of what we've been told. It's, it's absolutely not the end. It's the beginning, you know, so there's so much expansion. So that's, that's what I teach and coach women on is that knowledge that, understanding and offer that support.

And I also have a business with my business partner, Charlotte Young, and it's called midlife pleasure and power, and we offer women's circles and, we have a series of conversations that we offer our community and we have an online course that we've created. So you can get in contact with me that way as well, which is midlifepleasureandpower.com and yeah.

And, this work, you know, the liberation of midlife women has just become, so central to what I do and I, and I absolutely love it. 

Bree: Well, I am so glad that you are doing it, and it's an absolute joy to talk with you about this. 

So can we talk about sex? because there are very real things like lubrication, like feeling, and it definitely changes -- feelings around sex and particularly penetration. I know that you probably have a lot to say on this, so I'm just throwing that out there and yeah.

I’d Love to hear what you have to say. 

Shae Elise: Yeah, well look, when my lubrication pattern started to change, when I noticed that, I wasn't lubricating as quickly and, and in the past, I was abundantly lubricant. I never had any issues with it. So, when I realized that, I noticed that it was changing in my body, it felt really scary actually, because, you know, there's all those questions about, well, what does this mean?

And does this mean that, what does this mean about my sexuality and, and who I am as a sexual being? And I think as, as women, we're so conditioned to respond and, you know, I think this is the case, whether we're in hetero relationships or same-sex relationships, We’re still conditioned to associate our worth with our, ability to be turned-on women, you know, and if we're not able to respond in that way, then what does that mean?

And, you know, we're very conditioned to, in terms of sexuality, to experience sexuality through one very narrow lens, which is like a really yang pattern of arousal. So it's about really, experiencing sex, with a goal oriented approach, fast arousal, often penetrative focus and that for most people is what sex is.

And if all of a sudden, our bodies are changing at midlife and we're not lubricating as abundantly or as quickly. Then women are very conditioned, because of the mainstream porn industry, which has so much to answer for, you know, with regards to all of this. we're so conditioned to believe that we're not sexual beings anymore because we're not, feeling or ready for sex in a way that the mainstream culture says we should be.

When actually, you know, there's so much more to sex than that. And you know, like in terms of our experience of our sexual energy and our experience of pleasure, it can come from so many different elements of life, you know, like, we can have orgasmic experiences in our body through breath work, or we can even have orgasmic birth, you know, if we're birthing a baby and we can have an orgasmic experience in a yoga class, you know, like our experience of our sexual energy is so expansive.

Shae Elise: Like, you know, that concept that we only use like 10% of our brain, and it's a little bit the same, with sexuality, our experience of sexuality, as we know, it is just like 10%. And then there's this other 90%, expansion and, and understanding and a depth of feeling in the body that goes so far beyond this, this concept of just, Yang arousal.

 And yang arousal can also be left just purely a clitoral focus as well, and an explosive orgasm, as opposed to really learning how to cultivate your sexual energy and expand your sexual energy in a whole range of, of ways. So from that perspective, it is a repatterning, it is a reconditioning to understand sexuality in a new way, and to understand pleasure in a new way, but it's like the beauty of it is that it's far more expansive and it's far deeper than what we've been taught to be true. So, so this is the work that, and the places that I go to with women is, is helping them to understand that. And when we can cultivate, this beautiful sexual energy in us, in these other varied ways, then when we do show up in partner intimacy, we're so much more aware and in tune with our bodies and, and what it is that we desire that we're able to communicate that and, and have an experience of sex that is just so authentic and so beautiful, as opposed to just feeling like we need to go through the, rigmarole of just, you know, trying to show up, you know, in a way that we've been conditioned to all our lives that doesn't work for us.

So. I mean, the other thing is, is that, you know, women are, penetrated too soon and always have been, you know, like most women, having sex before their, vaginal canal is engorged and ready to receive penetrative sex. so that's happening before menopause for most women and then after and during menopause, and then after menopause, obviously that becomes more of an issue.

So just being willing to explore and take more time with your sexuality is a really important, element as well. 

Bree: It's so much about communication too. When I hear this, what comes to mind immediately? Oh, my gosh. How do you tell the partner? How is the partner going to respond? Is it so interesting, right?

It's that conditioned like? Oh, it's not about me. It's about my partner but on the deepest level it's communicating with, with the self too. And, and as, as I'm imagining you doing all of this work with these women, I'm just seeing how I'm like, thinking about how 

it's like shooting an arrow through all these flaming hoops of shame to get through, to, to the other side, or to get through, to find the opening, to find the, I don't know what I don't, I don't know the end of the metaphor. I want to thank you for holding people's hands as they navigate. All the spiral of shame and to, to feel what navigating that particular darkness can give rise to is this deep sensual pleasure, enjoyment, connection, awakening, 

Shae Elise: even on a, on a greater level.

it is really about, un-picking the co-dependence that is so common in relationships and, you know, being able to hold each other for each partner to be able to hold themselves in their desire and in, in what is true and what is authentic for them. and then to be able to come together and, co-create intimacy from that place.

Shae Elise: So it's a, it's a great maturing. 

Bree: Yes. We need our partners to go through the same process to,

Shae Elise: yeah, well, you know, I think that, you know, there's all kinds of ways to go through. I mean, obviously the experience of menopause is so strong and, you know, and there's nothing that compares to that, but, you know, there's, there's all kinds of initiations that we go through in life that support us to really unravel and become more of ourselves.

Bree: It's true. There are, there are so many initiations, so many rights of passage, so many evolutions, as you said earlier in our discussion. And there's also a part of me that just feels what I, what I've been feeling lately. Even as I resist, you know, it's this push me, pull you kind of resistance that I feel towards perimenopause, which seems natural.

Bree: but I also feel so grateful for these bodies that do have these rhythms, these cycles, these sheddings and restructuring of the brain. If I see it as being a supportive element that is not without pain or discomfort, and I don't mean that necessarily like sexual pain. I mean, the grieving, like the pain of grief, the pain of loss, the pain of change.

We have these biological systems that help us grow and shift and evolve. 

Shae Elise: It's magical. It's mystical. It's just, it's so incredible. 

Bree: It's alchemical 

Shae Elise: It's alchemical. It's just divine. It's what it is. It's so divine highly is yeah. Hearing your words and leaning into what you're saying and just feeling the beauty of that and the, and the magic of that and that like the essence of life.

well, Shae, thank you so much. 

Shae Elise: It's my absolute pleasure. I've really loved this conversation, Bree.

Bree: I really love this conversation with Shae and here are my key takeaways. 

Number one, we can take measures to claim the power, to feel the full spectrum of emotions that come up in times of transition from fear, grief, and pain to ease liberation and flow. 

Number two. Perimenopause is an opportune time, but not the only time to divorce, at least somewhat our sense of identity from our sense of worth that one really got me thinking.

Number three. Now is the time to redefine and expand our relationship to our sexual experiences. It's not just about penetration and it's not just about orgasm. As we move into this next phase of life, we have the chance to redefine pleasure and sensuality for ourselves. And that feels good. 

Contact information for Shae is in the show notes. So check out all that she has to offer. 

And whether or not you're in perimenopause. If you're interested in working one-on-one with me to do a deep dive into your transformational process, I'll be taking on five new individual clients in the month of January. And I'll have initial consultations all through December. So check out my website@thelovelyunbecoming.com to take your journey to the next level.