Menopause with Friends -- Sexual Awakening after Menopause: Embracing the Divine Feminine with Mary Tobias

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Bree: Happy new year, everyone. Welcome back to the pause to go podcast you know, I feel like we're always supposed to come up with something incredibly profound to say on new year's, which is just, I don't know. It's kind of ridiculous because new years feels pretty arbitrary to me. In fact, my friend, Kelsey Johnson, who is an incredible astronomer, educator artist and friend said on Facebook this week, it's really stupid that new year's doesn't correspond to the winter solstice.

And I agree. I mean, It makes far more sense to have a newYear correspond to. to something. That is of planetary Astronomical  or seasonal Significance Then some random Uh, Date on the Gregorio. Gorian calendar

Bree: Anyway, it also brings in mind the importance of these moments of finding the balance between making small, incremental changes in life daily changes, daily commitment to growth, to practice, to learning, to pausing, to taking action, and also recognizing.

Those milestone points as being significant, but perhaps not definitive. I think menopause and perimenopause. For those of us who go through perimenopause is also an incredible example of. Today, I'm continuing the menopause with friends series with actually [00:02:00] a Facebook friend of mine.

 I'm talking to Mary Tobias. Mary and I were in a mastermind group together last summer. It was in that group that I came up with the idea to do the pause, to go podcast. So when I was brainstorming, I put out a call on our Facebook group for anyone to share their menopause stories.

I just wanted to hear everything. And I got a lot of responses, and Mary was among them. And boy, does she have an empowering story to tell what I really love about Mary's story is how deep her developmental transformation and especially her sexual transformation has been. If we want to talk about a profound shift, Mary really exemplifies that.

Uh, Mary lives in Massachusetts, she studies tantra and Touro, [00:03:00] and she's interested in all the things that elevate the divine feminine, which she talks about in this podcast. So if you're interested in learning more about the divine feminine, this is a great episode for you. She's also an administrator in the biotech industry and she's the mother of two adult children.

And she has been polyamorous for over three years. I was truly fascinated by Mary's journey. And I think you will be to enjoy.

 I would love to begin, Mary, with a very simple question , which is how old are you and where are you in relation to perimenopause and menopause? 

Mary: I turned 60 April 13th of this year, and I believe I am at the very end of menopause.

I started going through the final transition of no [00:04:00] longer menstruating when I was about 57. So I was late to the party, but, yeah, I haven't, I haven't bled since then, so yeah, I believe I'm done. 

Bree: I think, you know, technically it's one year past the last menstruation one year of no bleeding. It's the moment of menopause as arbitrary as that may seem. 

Mary: Right? So I had my, the Mo the last day of my last period was October 15th, 2017. I know that specifically, because I had gone on vacation. October 1st. And my period started early and I went on vacation to Mexico. Of course, with my period, thinking that I would end in like five days and that would be fine.

Oh no, it lasted 15 days. And then done forever. The year later, October 15th, 2018, I [00:05:00] called my son and I said, do you want to go to Salem for the. And he said, sure, why do you want to do that? I said, well, I think it's time for me to buy a cauldron. And he said, okay, no questions because I'm weird, anyway. I figured I'm a crone. Now I have all this womb wisdom. And the symbol for that is a cauldron. That's what I did. 

Bree: So many people have a story about their last period happening unexpectedly when they were going on vacation.

Mary: Yeah. Yep. It's 

Bree: like the final, little eff you 

Mary: or that, or the universe is saying, you need to pay attention to this because this is going to be gone. So pay attention, sink into it for the last time. Cause then it's gonna be gone. You 

Bree: And so you've got this cauldron and you became a crone. 

 Did you feel like it was a new chapter in your life?

Mary: Yeah. I feel like, yes, when I turned 50, I felt like a new chapter was opening in my life at 60, or I wasn't 60 yet. But when I [00:06:00] bought this caldron and you know, when I kind of sank into what being a crone meant.

It really did feel like a whole new chapter was opening very exciting chapter, a chapter of more possibility of life continuing. Whereas our culture tells you you're done. I felt like I had just started something brand new and especially when it comes to my health and how I treat my body, I don't have to treat it differently.

I get to, and I get to discover what it needs all over again, how I can take care of it in very special ways so that I can continue to live a vibrant life, including having a very vibrant and discovery oriented and creative sex life. 

Bree: Tell me more about that. You make it sound exciting.

Mary: It is exciting. Well, I feel like I began in my late fifties, when my marriage started to end, [00:07:00] I had made a decision then that for the rest of my life, my sex life was going to be something very different than it always had been. And I started exploring human sexuality, sacred sexuality. I stumbled upon tantra and sacred sexuality.

And I started reading books and talking to people and learning about sex as as truly a divine and sacred act that is about two souls coming together. I learned the real definitions of dominance and submission. I learned about, certain BDSM practices that are about self-discovery and I immersed myself in all of that and in those communities and took some real risks and uncovered the truth. That is really, if you want a vibrant sex life later in your life, really, all you have to do is want it and make that decision. Your body's [00:08:00] going to change, but there's so many things that you can do to work with those changes to allow you to have what you desire and almost make getting what you desire better because you've kind of worked for it and you've made it a priority and valued your sexuality as something so divine and so sacred that it deserves the attention you give it. We are truly sacred beings women our wombs create matter. And we, we really need to see ourselves that way and that our periods we've been told that they were, that they're a curse, right. We use this terrible language. And I remember when I was about 50, I was having trouble with a little tiny pain, like right in my introitus and it was causing painful sex.

And my gynecologist said, well, You know, your skin's starting to get a little fragile and it's called vaginal atrophy. And first of all, [00:09:00] I thought, why in the hell are those two words together in one sentence? And my next thought was, I'm going to blow up if I hear it again. And I said, well, is there something I can do?

And she said, no, you really can't. And I'm an Aries . I have a stellium in Aries. So no, one's going to tell me that I can't do something about something I want to do. And I did. I went on my own and I figured out how to solve the problem. And that was really the opening of the door of like, you know what, I've got a little more control over this.

Then I'm being told that I do. And I started taking collagen supplements and I found a really good all natural. vaginal lotion that I use every day and it worked on the problem. We're told one thing, but really the reality is we have a lot available to us to create whatever we want to create.

Bree: And you really took it into your own 

Mary: hands. I did. We all have to, because our culture [00:10:00] is going to tell you that you're done and they're going to think, you know, we, we recoil at women's bodies that are not. like age 28, right? 28 is like the last time your body is the standard. And, so we really have to take all of that on and we have to take on our attitude about touching our body and work with our body and looking at it.

And. And coming to grips with what our orgasm is and what it's about. And have you ever had one and how do you want to have one? And all of that is so tampered down, that it's hard for a lot of women to have what I'm describing. 

Bree: So as you, as you've reached out and found this whole new community, this whole new world,

Do you find that there are a number of women who are perimenopausal and post-menopausal in that group, in that community? 

Mary: Oh, yes. Now there, there are a lot of young women, but there are a lot of tantricas[00:11:00] that are my ageand older in my age group, I should say, that know exactly what I'm talking about and there sex educators and, and yes, there are women in that group and there are younger women who are very skilled and knowledgeable about how to work with a perimenopausal body that are very, very helpful that do all kinds of things that could help somebody going through this who doesn't know who to turn to. I would absolutely encourage women to go off the grid and find a tantrika or a tantric practitioner as part of your perimenopausal or menopausal care. And get some spiritual help.

Cause all of that kind of translates into your physical expression, your sexual expression, your sexual energy gets stoked up and, and you can have it every day, all day if [00:12:00] you want. And these people are very skilled and know how to do. 

Bree: I love that. 

Something that you mentioned before was Really tapping into the feminine and the divine feminine has come up a lot in conversations about perimenopause and menopause as this being a time to actually step into the divine feminine.

 So what does the divine feminine mean to you?

Mary: The divine feminine in general means to me, a woman who is in receptive energy all the time and in balanced with her divine mass, we all have divine feminine. We all have divine masculine energies, but some of us are more dominant in the others. I'm more divine, feminine, dominant, and they're equal power.

So that's really, the key is to understand that those two powers are equal. So when you're in your divine feminine, you are in the [00:13:00] power of receptivity. And when you're in that place, all things come to you. You don't have to prove yourself. You don't have to get or keep a man. He comes to you. You've got something he can't get.

So he comes to you, all things come to you and that your pleasure is your number one priority. Before anything, the pleasure in everything you do, what you eat, how you sleep, what you're wearing, who you hang out with, what handbag you carry. It's all about your pleasure. That's number one, the minute your eyes pop open in the morning.

How am I going to give myself pleasure too? Because from that, all things kind of emanate. We are our first priority in relationship, a man in his divine masculine, we are his first priority. It's kind of like that, that airplane thing where [00:14:00] you have to take the air and put it on your self first, before you put it on your kid.

Sure. It's the same thing. In the universe. If we held ourselves as sacred and divine and our first priority, everyone else benefits. When people ask me, how do you get into that space? My, my favorite easiest way is to make sure your back is on the back of your chair. You feel your shoulders on the back of your chair.

That is a receptive stance. And then you are in your parasympathetic nervous system. And you can just receive it's all about receiving. And again, , I keep bringing up culture, but culturally we've been told it's better to give than receive. We are way one-sided and especially women. We learn when we, especially when we have children, we kind of feel like we have to be sacrificial lambs and we have to give, give, give, give, give all the time.

And then we're completely depleted. We have to [00:15:00] be able to receive. As much as we give, if not more, we are number one. So that's what it means to me. And from that mindset of that, I, my first priority, then all of my choices come from that place. 

Bree: It's beautiful.

It makes me think of Brene Brown's strong back. Soft front. Oh, Approach. My therapist introduced me to strong back soft front as an idea. And one of my exercises was to spend more time sitting in chairs or making sure that I have sufficient pillows to support my back so that I'm not trying to hold myself up.

With my whole front, truly just physically and can then be receptive in a more receptive mode. It's such, it's it's it is spiritual and emotional. Yes. And physical. And [00:16:00] they're all the same, ultimately. 

Mary: Yeah. The divine feminine teaches us to be soft in our bodies. And like right now I'm working with a woman and doing a program that. that talks about food and talks about exercise and how we force force force in a linear fashion, our bodies to be something in a masculine approach to diet and exercise. And I know for myself, I can maintain that only so long. And then I fall apart because it doesn't work for me because I'm doing it through a divine masculine eyes.

I have to do it through, through flow. And the divine feminine is all about flow and pleasure. And what brings me pleasure. And one thing that she teaches, which I think is so beautiful is that, you know, how we talk about how we are our own unique selves and no other time in history will ever be one of us.

That's true of our bodies and our body shape [00:17:00] and our body capability. And so when you're talking about body image, if you can take on this idea that, oh yeah, my body is the way it is for a reason. And it's beautiful in that reason that it will never, they'll never be one. Like it there's another level of self-love that can happen.

Bree: Do you feel that you have a different relationship with your body now than you did when you were say 28? Oh yeah. 

Mary: Yeah, I was, I was very thin until I was about, about 28, I'd say, and then weight started to come on and, and that's when I started dieting and started really trying to, to force myself to be something that, that it didn't want to be.

So yeah. And it never was enough and never ending. So. 

Bree: Yeah. what does enough feel like now?

Mary: Enough feels like wherever I am, whatever I am is [00:18:00] enough. It's just enough. And that's hard because I I'm still pushing against things that I am conditioned to believe. but that's what I try to do is just say, however, I show up every love, whatever shows up the shift isn't about adopting something wholeheartedly that, that somebody else wants me to adopt.

This shift is me loving, whatever. 

Bree: Have your relationships changed as a result because this is a huge shift? Yeah. 

Mary: Well, I'm lucky because I have a partner that has done a, quite a bit of work on himself he loves personal growth. And he is very spiritual. So I'm very lucky that I didn't have a partner that, that doesn't just understand this, but celebrates it.

And I'm in this community kind of a bubble ish community that that does as well. I, I do think I have people in my life that find my attitude that they're [00:19:00] skeptical. They're thinking, yeah. How long is she going to be that way before she joins weight Watchers again? Or, you know, or, or whatever. But, I don't know.

I've kind of always been a little bit of a loose cannon anyway, I guess maybe that's self-deprecating, but the people that are closest in my life really aren't surprised. 

Bree: So you're a free thinker. Yeah, what I'm hearing is that, that you are really honoring this part of yourself that has always been there.

It's not like this new person suddenly emerged it's that you were able to clean up clear away some of the social conditioning or constraints that were holding her back. 

Mary: Yeah, the more I heal my trauma, the more I learn about my conditioning, that I'll you say I'm trying to clear away. It's not that I'm changing.

I'm just becoming who I actually. 

Yeah. And unbecoming that who you are not correct? 

Yes, [00:20:00] that is correct. And I've always been highly sexual and it's interesting. I've always been a lover of sex and very highly sexual. And when I was young, I was not empowered. I was not empowered to ask for what I wanted and I had some shame about wanting it and I.

Was very much involved with the feminist movement. And sexually, I like to be submissive and I did not understand that a submissive and a dominant are equal powers. I do understand that now, but at the time I didn't and I felt like if I allowed for submission in my sex life, then I was, I was betraying the cause, the feminist cause, so in my sex life, there was never duality. I never allowed for that. I, it was even Steven instead of this kind of yin and yang. so when I say, when I got older, I wanted something to be different. That was one of the things I wanted 

Bree: The patriarchy really does [00:21:00] influence us in so many ways. And, and we do end up sometimes really,you know, binary has, is, has such a negative connotation because it's limited, right? It is limited. And, and it's always accurate. Right. But w but I do think that duality can be, can be very accurate and, sometimes we need to explore the binary to figure out where we, where our comfort zones are.

But when that comes into conflict, Yeah. Our cultural understanding or expectations of self, it can really cause some cognitive dissonance. Yeah. 

Mary: Yeah, absolutely. 

Bree: So do your kids, so you have, you have children. And do they know about this evolution in your life? Are they aware? 

Mary: They do. And they [00:22:00] joke around with each other.

They say, "where's the mom who used to make the perfect tuna sandwich with no crust?" and that mom's not gone, but that mom has evolved. So I'm hoping that later in their lives, they understand. That we do always evolve. We do always grow and that we do always have choices. You're never stuck.

There's always someplace to go and someplace to change. And thankfully for them, they have a mother and frankly, they have a father too that will always have an open door for whatever they're going through for whatever they need. However, they need to change and shift their life to make it work for them the most authentically.

And that's really what I want for them is to have them understand that what's important is that they live authentically even if it flies in the face of what you've been taught or what's your best friend believes or what your boss [00:23:00] believes. Those sacrifices are worth making. If it means you're living who you really are.

and what's, what's been great is through my evolution as I've been able to have some wonderful conversations with them about sexuality. So for example, my daughter, before prom and she wasn't seeing anyone at the time, and I felt like prom is like the quintessential night that American teenagers have sex for the first time.

Mary: So I said, I want to have a talk with you about this. And she was expecting me to talk about condoms and safety and blah, blah, blah. But I said, we're going to talk about the language. First, we're going to talk about the words, losing your virginity and how ridiculous and messed up that is.

And we talked about a lot about the language around sex that, that is talking you out of what you naturally desire and you, my friend [00:24:00] are entitled to your desires. It's your birthright. So let's talk about why you'd want to do that. And people say that it's a deflowering, it's not a deflowering, it's a flowering, it's a crossing over from having a sex life with yourself, to having a sex life with someone else.

And it is really a big step, but it's a natural step that you are going to desire to take. So let's talk about how to take that step. And, and empower you so that you take it when you're ready and when you're in charge and when it's up to you. And then I talked about like my first time story and other people's like, I'm when my first time story I was in love and love and love and love and love with this guy. but conversely, I had a friend in college, she was just ready and she just went out and she just had a random experience and was super happy about it and was relieved and was ready to go from there. So everyone's got their own [00:25:00] way to go about it.

Find yours stand in it truly, a nd go from there. So that was just an amazing conversation that I had. 

Bree: Beautiful. What a beautiful way to talk to your daughter about sex. How does she take it? 

Mary: She was a little shocked at first, but as soon as I talked about the language, and so as soon as I talked about being entitled to her desires, she was absolutely engaged.

And, and she is very grateful that we have the relationship that we have, that I can, we can be Frank and open about it and talk about all of it. Like it's normal and natural because it is, you know, 

Bree: I have such hope for this next generation as sexual beings, because. Conversations like that, you know?

And, think it's especially important. It's a whole other podcast, a whole other conversation, but [00:26:00] the, the whole evolution of porn and sexuality through the male gaze and moving beyond that into a ,very empowered place again, right there is the, I have not, I'm not social scientist or psychologist. So I am only speaking from my, very dangerous and limited understanding of the sexual revolution, but it, it does feel like there's a potential for another sexual revolution that is even deeper than the one that my parents went through. and that's very exciting. that if the pill was the start of a first sexual revolution, and now we have an even deeper medicine, which is empowerment.

It's the start at the second. Then it, it really gives me hope. And it also gives me hope when they reach menopause or perimenopause that they. we'll see the, the freedom and the potential. [00:27:00] And they'll recognize that some of the, just as I'm recognizing that some of the side effects that are sometimes uncomfortable or painful or disturbing are much like when we go into puberty and the side effects of puberty are, are.

Deeply uncomfortable to go through. And yet it's, it's a passage and when you spoke earlier about how you had your period, you had your final period on the vacation, and then it called your attention to it. That it said pay attention to me.

Now this is important. Yeah. That is a bit of what this, when we are uncomfortable, we have to truly attend to ourselves. We have to stop and listen and attend to help us through that passage. So thank you for, bringing that into full perspective. They're really, really helpful for me to [00:28:00] hear.

And what is one thing? If you had one thing. That you wanted people who are going through perimenopause, who are entering into this time in their lives to know what would be one thing that you would wish for them or want for them. 

Mary: I would want for them to see it as a magical, beautiful time despite the discomfort and that you're changing.

 It's a time of discovery. So find out how to work with those changes and find out how to nurture and care for your body, the way you would nurture and care for an infant. Instead of seeing it as a curse or the change or that it's, you know, an end cause it is an end of something, but it's a beginning of another and it's a beginning to a whole nother relationship with yourself.

So I would want them to see it that way and encourage them To understand that there's so much in products [00:29:00] and in counseling and in support around working with it and figuring out how to make your life, certainly your sex life, how you want it. And what's great about having m enopause at the age that we have, it is those of us who have children for the most part they're older and they don't need us.

So we have the time to focus on ourselves again. So that's what I would say. Embrace it as a, as a beautiful change as a time that you get to spend time on yourself. You don't have to, but you get to Hm. 

Bree: Okay. What do you do with that cauldron? 

Mary: Well, I, as I said, I'm an Aries, so I really love fire. And sometimes at the new moon or the full moon, I'll do a little ritual where I will write down things I want to release that aren't serving me and things that I want to call in on paper and I'll light my cauldron and yeah. Say each one of them [00:30:00] and burn them in the cauldron and send those words up to heaven. 

Bree: What a, celebratory act for a crone to take on. I love that you're really embracing that role.

Mary: Yeah. Yeah, my partner told me a story and I don't know where he found this out, but he said in some ancient times, the Crohns lived on the Hills and when men would come back from battle, they would go to the crone to be fed and bathed and have sex with her because she's the one that brought him back to humanity after the violence and the inhumanity of war before he went into the 

village to, to go back to his family and his community.

Now, I don't know where he found out that story, but I thought, wow, that's really amazing because Crohn's really are. We're very powerful and we really hold that, that wisdoms. So I kind of liked that. 

Bree: I love that too. The only two animals where the [00:31:00] females live beyond menopause are humans and killer whales, I believe.

And, there is an in the killer whale. Society well society, they play a very important role of keeping, the, I don't know what you call a herd of killer whales. I don't know, keeping the knowledge they're keepers of the knowledge . they keep them safe. And so that there is that beautiful mythology around human Crohn's is exciting. And I do feel like I, that's certainly something that I'm feeling now I'm 48 and I am really beginning to feel, like I'm tapped into a wisdom that is not mine. Right. Is that, that it is. sacred and much, much larger than, me and that. I'm just a filter. And so I love this, this [00:32:00] growing community of, of crones or mavens and crones, because I think now there's a third. They they've squeezed in a third phase in there so we have the maiden, the matron, or mother, the Maven and the crone. And, I am definitely feeling the fullness of that Maven role upon me.

And it's, it's exciting to experience that. And it's so great to have. People like you who are so willing to share your story and your journey to help us guide the way because not a lot of people, not a lot of people are talking about, leaning into. submissiveness or dominance leaning into sexuality in this time.

Mary: Right? I mean, sexual expression is always for the young, you know, they get to wear the lingerie and, and play with toys and, and [00:33:00] tied up and all this stuff, but we can too, if we want it, we can. And. And should, and we are just as beautiful and desirable as we were in our younger years. We are just as beautiful and desirable as our younger, women in the world.

It's all about how. What you believe in, see about yourself and how you value yourself. And I feel like my sexual value and my sexual energy and my sexual prowess is very valuable and desirable. not everybody wants it, but that's okay. That doesn't diminish my value at all. So I take chances and I, I explore And have a great time doing it. 

Bree: there's a real gift in having not everyone wanted. Right. I have two daughters who are. in their late teens and early twenties and walking down the street with them now, sometimes I [00:34:00] feel so protective of them because, they are in that phase of.

Yeah, they're intoxicating to people. And know that they don't have this perspective, so it was a real awakening for me because I realized, oh, I'm so grateful to be free from the weight of that expectation all the time and, and moving from, and you spoke to it before. Moving away from this place of striving and accommodating and meeting into a place of receiving and allowing

Mary: well, they should do, they should be in a place of receiving and, and, and be in their divinity too. Even though they're young, I was just, I worked with a woman with, I do her divine feminine workshops and she just posted something about how to kind [00:35:00] of deflect unwanted attention. And it's almost like you make a choice about your energy energetically.

You don't let anyone into your aura that can't see your heart. So, so that you kind of protect yourself energetically by just making that choice when you go out so that people can look at you and objectify you, but it can't, it can't penetrate, you know, your. Your aura, your what, your energetic field, because you've made the, the conscious choice that the only energy you want coming towards you is people who can really see who you are.

 I think it's an interesting idea to be conscious of that, to have that conscious. 

Bree: Absolutely. Yeah. Well maybe we all carry some of that consciousness with us as we move forward. Yes. Is there anything that we have not touched on yet that you would like to talk [00:36:00] about?

Mary: We can talk about orgasm. Great. I feel like I know a lot of women still who, who haven't had a real, haven't had an orgasm or don't know how to have orgasm or, or they only have one kind. And one thing that the tantrikas that I know, one of the things that they teach is a lot of self-pleasure and it's very slow and it's very beautiful.

And its purpose is to explore your body, to find out where your places are, so that you can have an orgasm with a partner so that you can guide your partner. And I would highly recommend people do that. And I would highly recommend people do that with a hand or with, with, a crystal wand, not a vibrator because that, that vibration can be numbing.

So,Or even with your partner, slow things down, [00:37:00] get a book, look at, look at places in the woman's body that are sensitive. If you don't know them and really attack that sort of, and if you're not having them. Figure out how to have them. And don't think because you're older or because you're in menopause or perimenopause that they can't happen for you anymore, or they won't have them for you anymore.

I have stronger orgasms now at 60 than I did when I was 20. And so it's possible. So don't think it is. And don't think it's not important because it really is. And in tantra we define orgasm as the. The energy and the time prior to climax. So organism and climaxes are two different things. So to elongate that time to make that time last long, and you can do that through breathing through slowing down and through just knowing your own body and what to do with it.

So that that time can be long and luxurious and you [00:38:00] can kind of sink into it before you have a climax, but it's a very important piece of the puzzle. And I think too many of us treat it as an add-on and it's, it's really not. So I want to wait or we shut 

Bree: it out completely. And it's denying, a very important part of our 

Mary: right.

100% we treat sex in this culture. Like it is an add-on like, it's not something that's vital. Like your clitoris is not a vital organ. You won't die without it, but it, but it really is a vital organ because soulfully you'll die without it. So, it really is important, important. To they give you a whole sense of yourself in a whole sense of your life.

Yeah.

Bree: It's a really good lesson because sometimes when we feel pain or discomfort, we try to separate ourselves from those feelings. Right. We try, we really do. And, and so when that [00:39:00] is around our bodies, then, then sex is often one of the first to abandon because we have pain or shame or fear around it. And so remembering that a path to greater connection with ourselves and others. It's a path to understanding our place. Within this world and the world in ourselves it's a great lesson. So thank you.

Mary: It's the connection to the divine. It's a connection to our divinity. It really is. My partner said, wants to meet I'm so glad God chose me to show you how much he loves you. And I thought that's really what we are. We are the divine. Telling you, these bodies, you need to love this person for me. And when you bring sex into that sacred space, it's an incredible thing to experience and [00:40:00] everyone can experience it.

And, and I would hope that everyone would want to. And when you talk about pain and sex, you're right, that we shut that out, but that's where your exploration has to come from. Come to, I should say. All the there's products, there's supplements. There's things that can help you with the pain and, and practices that can help you, to get, to get to that point.

And that's worth the journey. It's 100% worth that journey 

Bree: noted.

 I just want to thank you. Thank you for such a Frank and open and, generous conversation. I really appreciate it. I think you've, you've really given some beautiful, beautiful examples of, of how to move 

Mary: forward. Well, I hope so.

Thank you so much. I really, I'm very excited for this podcast and I want everyone to listen

Bree: absolutely. 

Mary: Yeah. Not just to me, but to all of it. Yeah. 

Bree: Here are my key takeaways from this conversation with [00:41:00] Mary Tobias, 

the divine feminine and the divine masculine are equally powerful and important. Being receptive is a sacred act and we have to be able to receive as much as we give. 

 One way to get into the receptive mode is to sit with your back fully supported by a chair or a.

 Get curious around your body's changes and consider looking at this time as an opportunity to nurture and care for your body in a new way and cultivate a new relationship with yourself.

Mary also gave me some great resources for tantric practitioners. So if you're interested in learning more about those practices, check out the show notes. What