Mapping the Creative Entrepreneur's Journey with CEO Erica Arvold (Part 1)

(This transcript was generated by AI and has not been verified.)

Bree: In today's episode, I chat with my longtime friend and really phenomenal creative entrepreneur, Erica Arvold.. I've gotten feedback that a lot of you prefer episodes that are under 45 minutes. So I'm keeping this one under 45 minutes, but that also means that I have to divide this chat into two segments.

So today is part one, and I'll tell you what it is. A must listen for anyone who is a creative, whether that's a performer or an artist. Or anyone who's just interested in any kind of creative career. And if you aren't, I think that you'll still find this insider's view of developing a company fascinating and applicable to your professional and personal development.

Erica is the owner and CEO of her company Arvold. For 31 years. She has worked as a casting director, educator, speaker, producer, writer, director, and advocate for screening. Eric has contributed to participated in or helmed the making of over 140 films, 85 television shows, countless multimedia and commercial projects.

Her casting credits include black Adam dope, sick red notice the black phone swagger house of cards. My best friend's exorcism charm city Kings the day long brothers, the evening hour freaky, Harriet Lincoln, and loving . And Erica directed the short films Thursday, and the award-winning short film here today.

And she served as a producer on projects, including coming through the rye elemental house, hunting Josephine, Texas rain time, machine guitar, and wishing. Eric has early career with thanks to her mentors, which we discuss in this episode includes films, backdraft Charlotte's, web gods, and monsters, the horse whisper in her shoes, a league of their own love Jones, mad city, Rudy and runaway bride.

Erica has worked with a ton of major studios as well as many independent filmmakers and. She was inducted into the first lady of Virginia's opportunity, hall of fame for her contributions to the economic growth in this state. In 2010, Erica founded Arvold education to cultivate artistic growth in actors and filmmakers.

And that quickly expanded into offering classes for pretty much every. Her collaboration with master teacher, actor and director Richard Warner is now Arvold Warner studio and focuses on actor and multihyphenate screen artists training . Her rehearsal for life program, Metta focuses on positive, personal and professional acceleration for all people. And Netta is often invited into the business and leadership world of corporate coaching, applying tools and methodology of actor training to learn effective communication, engagement, and trust.

And I can say this anchor training should be a part of every corporation's professional development program. Really Erica is not only incredibly accomplished. She's also just a great human being. And I think that you'll really enjoy this discussion as we talk about the trajectory of her phenomenal career and her key takeaways from it that can apply to you enjoying. 

Erica and I were talking about ideas for creating portable forts for recording. So. because people who are listening, can't see it.

You have quilting batting behind you right? 

Erica: Yes. It's a hundred percent cotton batting material, a quarter of an inch thick that is used for the inside of quilts. And it is the best sound proofing. material and I got it from Joann fabrics in bulk about five years ago. And I have made, I'm not kidding.

Hundreds of soundboards out of it. And I still have leftover that is in my attic. I love it. 

Bree: And by the way, Eric is not an affiliate of Joanne's fabrics. 

Erica: Not at all. Is there still on in Charlottesville? 

Bree: I think so,

Erica: I'll tell ya. I'm always thinking of businesses that made it through the pandemic, in a successful way.

And I'm like, people still buy fabric. It's amazing. Like one wouldn't think that that's a thriving business. I think, I think it exists. 

Bree: I know it exists because one of the hobbies that one of my daughters has picked up in the pandemic is sewing. And so. We probably invested a lot.

Joann's fabrics is our therapy really? 

Erica: Oh, the touch of fabric and I love sewing. I love sewing. You can make anything. I used to make all sorts of costumes out of the sheets on my bed. My mother would get really mad. 

Bree: It's like I'm making a dress out of the curtains, right? 

exactly.

Erica: Whatever's around. Oh my gosh. I'm so happy to see your face. I know, I know the wonderful listeners can not see your face, but you guys, you should see Bree. She's glowing and happy and radiant and powerful. And it's women's history month.

Bree: It is women's history month. I think, you know, I think it's time for us to change this.

Like one month of history for different groups of people. Can we, can we just claim more? 

Erica: We're like year years. You're always like, why does it have to be? Yeah, I agree

Bree: I am so glad to be here with you and thank you for making time to come and chat with me. 

Erica: Ditto.

Bree: It's always fun. When we have opportunities to use our work as an excuse to connect as friends. 

Yeah, that's true. Also, what is the difference really? When you're in a creative field, it's really hard.

I remember having this conversation once quite a while ago, and they were like, well, don't you separate your personal life from your professional life because that's really the healthy balance, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, no, I don't know how to live a creative life without collaborating and talking.

It's like, I don't know where that line is. It's a very wavy line. If there is a line at all, it's a huge Venn diagram at the most scientific, but I think it's much more integrated 

and that's exactly why I wanted to have you on, because that has been my experience in my own professional life.

But also watching you, watching your trajectory as a business woman and entrepreneur and seeing how. You Erica, okay, I'm going to take a little step back 

Erica: racing. 

Bree: So , there's all this talk about law of attraction, right? Like you can't get away from law of attraction. I'm very skeptical about it. And, and so many times I've been like, Hmm, law of attraction. It just doesn't fit right with me. And then I was thinking, do I know a single person for whom law of attraction feels resonant with them and you are the only person I can think. 

Erica: No. 

Bree: And here's why, here's why, because you are on abashedly yourself and always have been, I've known you.

I mean, I don't know. I haven't known you forever, but I've known 

Erica: you for, we met back in the day in Maine. Graphic Institute camps or whatever. 

Bree: The Maine Photographic Workshops 

Erica: figured out shops. Yeah. We figured that out when that was like in the nineties, 

something 

Bree: like that. Yeah. And then we re met again about 18 years ago, I think. Yeah. 

Erica: When you were pregnant. 

Bree: That's right. So not quite, yeah. So, well, I don't know. I don't know how many years, . 

Erica: And you were pregnant with 

Bree: Camden? Nope. I was pregnant with Anna Brin. 

Erica: Really? I thought you were pregnant with Camden and then I remember you were getting pregnant.

Bree: Okay. I think it's because you saw the movie that I made about. 

Erica: You're right. You're 100% correct. Thank you, see? N ot only do the personal relationships have a whole lot of overlap, but the movies I watch are so real on the brain that I have in complete different view of reality. Dreams, movies, and reality as most people would define it are all real to me.

Bree: I understand that, you know, with a history in theater, so much of my life is colored by what show was I working on at that time? And of course then when you are creative, your whole view of the world shifts, according to whatever project you're making too. So it is really, it's like, oh, I was in a. Dark cynical place.

I must have been working on hunter gatherers or whatever. Right. 

Erica: You know, what's crazy. I got married during runaway bride. Isn't that funny? And I would try on all the wedding dresses in the costume department. It was crazy. 

Bree: I love it. I love it. But you didn't run away. 

You've been married for a long time.

Erica: No, yeah, yeah, no, we've been together a long time, but the funny thing is, is that when I lived in Los Angeles, which was almost a decade , all of my personal memories are categorized by projects I was on. But now that I'm back on the east coast, my memories are categorized. not just by like year in season, but that's a part of it, but it's also about other life events and not necessarily work events.

And I find that interesting. And I, I just think it's because there aren't so many distinguished seasons in California, or at least in Los Angeles. So,I always thought that was weird. Like I remember getting married during runway ride, not the year or the date, you know? 

Yeah. I, I do know. 

Bree: One of the things I'd really love to talk to you about is , you know, you were mentioning before, basically? What is work-life balance, right? That work is personal? 

Erica: What is that, Bree? I think that if you wake up in the morning thinking that you would choose to do what you have the privilege of doing, you don't have to have work-life balance.

I really don't. I think it's a part of everything. I mean, since, March, 2020, when I had COVID part of my recuperation was my discovery of yoga and it really, really helped me twisting and breathing and all sorts of very gentle, things, but I've stuck with it and I've done it.

I'm up to now four to five days a week, all, I mean, I've never missed a class in almost two years. , but to your point, Bree. I feel like when I'm, doing anything, I'm incorporating certain yoga poses. Like when I get into the car, I am like, oh, look, it's a half lunge with my other leg going out and I'm sitting in the car.

Like, it's just, it's, it's a part of how I'm moving in. My awareness is peaked probably in the same way. When you buy a new car, all of a sudden you notice all the other new cars. So like I get that it could be a honeymoon phase, but it is almost two years later. but I think that's the same with being an artist, regardless of whether you're a fine painter, whether you are a musician, especially if you're a screen artists, because screen artistry, especially film and television is such a communal,project regardless.

there are auteurs, but even auteurs need other people to help them make their art. And so, I think that how can one. Separate almost work from pleasure. Although I think in awareness of it is so important because burnout can happen. And so it's not work life. Like everyone seems to say, I think it's all sorts of other aspects to your life.

Erica: Do you have alone time to, can you just check out and read a book? Do you have a meditation practice? Do you have like that? All of that to me is work-life balance. Not just between where, I guess that's part of life. I suppose that's what it is, but I'm just thinking life, like being the family. That's where I automatically go to.

And I'm like, well, if I'm with people all the time and I'm definitely an extrovert, but if I'm with people all the time, I'm exhausted. You know, 

Bree: Have you ever had burnout? Have you ever experienced it? 

Erica: Oh, a hundred million percent. Almost every day. I think. Not really every day, but I absolutely have had burnout.

I mean, started the membership of Arvold Warner studio, which is our education arm within the company that I started, which is just called Arvold.. And,there was a point I was like, I can't keep up this pace.-- what has to go, do I have to hire more people or do I have to cut this out or do I have to delegate more,

and I think the lucky thing for me is I go all in. I don't know how to not go all in. and I think in this business, it's almost a requirement, so, I'm built for it. However, I'm so proud of myself because I've turned more projects down since December. So December, January, February, right, three months, I've turned more projects down.

And I think I have in my. Oh, and it's because I cannot even approach burnout. I've been there and I, I, I have to be discerning. And then all these other amazing opportunities appear. And it's like, I always preach that. I tell people that I have consulting. I do, there's a million things, but, you know, walk the walk it's hard 

and it is, it is, but there is such power in "No." So much power in "No", and in yes.

Right. And maybe, maybe it, the real power is learning how to trust your intuition so that you can figure out when to say yes. And when to say No, 

I have this opportunity right now that I'm literally like this morning, I got up, I'm like Ted, we have to discuss the pros and cons of this opportunity.

And he's like, okay. 

Says my husband. and I'm like, okay, I think it's a yes, but it's a scary. Yes. And like, part of me is like, is it good if it's just curious? Is it not anyway? But I think that's what we have to do as creatives we navigate.

I mean, we're sailors really. We have a goal at the end and all we have to do is sail, which means we have to go to the left to the right, to the left, to the right. And then there's wins and then there's this, and then the boat might tip over and then this, and that's just like, and people are like, oh, you made it to your place.

And you're like, yeah. And they're like, was it hard? And I'm like, are you kidding? We just went through a harrowing journey. Did you not see it? You know, like, 

Bree: You use the word journey? You've just like set that up for me so beautifully. Can you tell us a little bit, you have built this big company.

It's a big company now. And so you have Arvold, which is casting, and then you have Arvold Warner Studio. 

Erica: It's very similar to that, but teeny bit different. So so Arvold or Arvold productions, which also just goes by Arvold is the umbrella company. So it has several factions inside it.

One is AWS, which is Arvold Warner studio, and that is the education arm that I have always been incredibly passionate about. And that has grown exponentially over the last year and a half. since the pandemic, because we introduced a membership that was online. So now we are available worldwide to provide educational services such as classes, but also we have a mindset and accountability, membership and it's for all screen artists, writers, directors.

There are many actors in there for obvious reasons because part of my other business within Arvold is Arvold casting. And that is kind of my anchor as a creative. That's what I've done since I was in college where I got an internship with a casting director and, I think it's my 32nd year doing it or something insane.

right. 1990 is when I started casting. Wow. That was my very first job. And one of my very first jobs was the movie Backdraft. I was the intern on it and that, you know how lucky I was Ron Howard, Ron Howard, who directed it, literally showed me how to make a movie, like showed me around the set.

Erica: And I'm like, that was my start in the business. How flipping lucky is that? And I'm just like, Hey, why don't you, my salad. It's just ridiculous. So, But, from there I've had so many mentors, I believe very, very much in mentorship and I received so much and I like to give so much, and that's part of what drives that education portion of, our company.

But that's big. I mean, we've got a whole wonderful docket of teaching artists and other collaborators and executive staff, et cetera. but we're still trying to, you know, figure out how it sustains itself. Honestly, you know, it's, it's a, investment on my part, put it that way. and then the casting business has been really interesting because while I started, for instance, I mentioned backdraft in Chicago being an intern for an amazing casting director named Jane Alderman.

Who's no longer with us, but she taught me everything and I ended up working my way up the ranks in Chicago. Then I moved to Los Angeles. Actually because my husband got a job, he was in the computer gaming business. And,I really experimented working at different casting offices. And in LA I was very hyper-focused in that day and age, it was a very appropriate thing to be.

Hyper-focused. Do you cast TV? Do you cast film? Those were two different jobs, two different careers, et cetera. I think it's a bit different now because the, the, to mingle so much and there's limited series and like a big movie, et cetera. But, I was so lucky to work at many different offices and, I, I mean, I worked in really tiny projects that ended up winning academy awards and I worked on huge studio projects and I just always loved.

The collaboration with people. It like the project was important. I needed to believe in the story I needed to believe yet when you're an assistant or an associate. You're not in the position necessarily to turn things down because you didn't like the script. Right. It's more about the office that you're working in.

And then when you become a casting director, you know, if you have enough offers, you can be a little more discerning. How lucky is that? Right. So when I moved to the east coast back when my kid was almost one, and we left LA that's when I had to start over. So it was really interesting.

I feel like either there's this art, someone told me once, I don't remember it was like this intuitive or this doctor, or somebody was like, Erica, the ability one has to start over completely is a rare skill.

And think of any of your moves, as just exercising that muscle. And I feel like when I left college and then I stayed in Chicago and had this wonderful job in Jane's office, then I left and went to Los Angeles. I started over then when I left Los Angeles, even though I was working on some amazing, incredible projects.

I'm so proud of when I moved to the east coast, I had to start over completely. And I mean, I became in this sounds really silly and I loved every minute of it. I was the PA on a 48 hour film project. And I was in charge of putting dirt and mud on people because it was a period piece and I ate it up. I loved it.

I was meeting people in the industry. and then very slowly I got opportunities and the big thing that put me in, I got Lincoln Steven Spielberg when I did Lincoln. That was my very first project of a large scale that I did from Virginia. And it shot in Richmond, Virginia.

And I was in charge of casting, all of the speaking roles that were local hires and they were many, I can't remember. And I, and my partner Anne Chapman who I had known for years, who happened to live in Richmond, which is crazy. That's another serendipitous thing. Right. You know, kind of like you and I Bree, 

 but it was interesting because you'd think that was easy. Right. You'd think, oh, she's doing a Steven Spielberg movie. Everyone's going to know that she's a legitimate casting director. Nope, because we had to fly under the radar and not give the real name of the project and not give the real name of the director.

Erica: And there were agents in North Carolina. I remember one and I will not name them, but I remember one in particular who I called and I said, look, I'm from Los Angeles. I am now in Virginia. I have a project. It's a big project. I wanted to make sure you paid attention to it. And they were like, we don't know who you are.

You're making it up. They didn't even do their research to see what I cast in LA and just shut the door in my face. And so none of their actors were ever considered. And , it was hard. I went to a local theater company in Charlottesville, you know, this story and said, I'm a casting director from LA.

And they said, oh, we'll have all our actors send you their pictures and not one person did. I think people were just really skeptical. I was used to Los Angeles, which is like everyone would at any opportunity would come sit on your doorstep and be like, I'm here cast me, you know? So I really had to do some looking under rocks and convincing of people and, and proving myself and all of that.

But at the same time, there were people who didn't know how to audition that hadn't had the opportunity who were amazing actors in theater shows that I would see and whatnot. And so I thought there was a need for a bit of education in terms of just translating those skills to be appropriate for say a studio to look at and approve, you know, and then, as well as there were people who were actually really, they didn't even know casting existed, but they had these amazing skills of, Utter creative discernment as well as absolute organization, which is pretty much what a casting director does.

and people skills able to negotiate, able to articulate things. And, and so I found that all of a sudden I started training future casting directors . I think that is the main reason don't let my bosses know that maybe they'll listen to, I don't know. I love you all my bosses, but I that's why, I mean, I do it for the material and the experience, but I do it continually now because my assistants go on and do unbelievable things.

Erica: They're at Pixar, they're at paramount, they're at Sundance. They're amazing, doing all sorts of things. And I'm so proud of them. And I don't know, that just makes me happy. It makes me really happy probably because I had mentors before me. 

Bree: I know that you heard the recent podcast episode with Beatrix Ost, who is a dear friend and mentor of mine. I am such a fan of the mentor culture. And I feel like we have to invest in it and perpetuate it. It's super important.

And especially for, helping people who haven't had access to roles or parts or, and I don't just mean film roles or TV role, I mean, roles in life. And that's how we do it is we look for those relationships and seek them out and invest in them and create 

Erica: it. And, you know, we do it, my company, Christian, my assistant who's literally like Mary Poppins and the smartest person in the world all rolled into one.

She will not call them her mentees. She's their mentee. Always. I love that. Amazing. And it's true. Like when one approaches it like that, it is absolutely true. 

Bree: It's so true. , I have,a former apprentice who is in fact, she has a show that's opening this weekend in Manchester, she's in school there.

And she has her senior show, in the UK this weekend. And I just sent her a little break a leg video, and I really stopped to think how much my life has changed because of her presence . And it's also, important for people who are seeking mentors to know that, to know that it's not just.

 taking from someone who has experience that people who have experience really learn. And it brings us back to beginner's mind and also makes us curious. 

Erica: Exactly. That's a funny beginner's mind and curious are the two phrases that come out the most throughout AWS, just so you know, literally.

And it should people like people ask me once because we have amazing teachers teaching artists that teach, you know, a CoStar class and things that are for. Actors who are more in the beginning first five to 10 years of their career. Right. And I tend to teach the classes more rarely only because I have so many other things I juggled, but also, you know, perhaps people who are series regulars or are about to be a lead in, in something and maybe have a longer career and, you know, maybe we're matched up well, because I've had a flip in 32 year career.

Right. So that makes sense. However, I find it very difficult to teach the other classes. And sometimes they're like, Erica, will you guests in that? And I'm like, sure. And then I'm like, oh my gosh. Like, I don't even know how to break it down sometimes. And it reminds me, and it's good to be reminded of that.

And it's really good to go back to the basics. But I remember my sister, when she was in, medical school, she was doing rounds. And she was an intern and her attending was like, there was some very complex case and the attending was talking all about it. And my sister was like, well, do you know what their temperature is?

And the attending had forgotten to take the temperature, which was a really obvious, basic thing. But I feel like that's sometimes I'm like, yeah, I've grown a company. I call myself an accidental CEO and now I've dropped accidental because I actually feel confident. And, but I, but then sometimes I'm like, wait, did you not look at the, you know, whatever, whatever the profit and loss statement and people are like, I don't know what that is.

I'm like, oh yeah. I had to learn about that. And so it's fun to share that. And it's fun to banter that around one thing that I am doing right now is I'm writing something. And so my opportunity is to go away for a month to really concentrate on that.

That's what I'm trying to b alance and or decide upon. And I'm like, it's scary. And you know what? It's scary. Cause I'm an utter beginner, which might be the reason to say yes. 

Bree: And that also may actually prevent deep burnout. You mentioned before that you love beginnings that you like, that you start all over.

You have to start all over again. Yeah, 

Erica: well, yeah. I'm a serial entrepreneur for certain because then it's like, oh, okay. This is built. Bree, you want to take it over and run it? Nope. Nope. I know you're not the right person. You like starting things, 

Bree: starting things too. I totally get that. But I think that doesn't have to be the global thing, right.

That doesn't have to be the Uber project. It can be. Within the project. How do you stay engaged and fresh? And excited and growing, right? Because I think what we really like is that feeling of growing. 

Erica: Absolutely. I went to somebody, our dear friend of mine is,coach kind of creative life coach and a manager of a lot of, amazing artists.

And we had like a four and a half hour or five hours session all about figuring out what my words were of what my values are. And it was so revealing, but I'm not for years now. I have not changed. They might've morphed a little bit, but I know what makes me tick and being able to articulate what is a human puts you in the state of joy or.

Gets you excited is I, I wish every human on the earth we're able to do that. Self-assessment because it provides such clarity and it helps me make all of these decisions. They, yes, 

Bree: it does. I actually have a free core assessment program for people because I think it's so important now. That's not, I mean, people can work with me and we go through it together, but I also just offer it as a recorded session as well for free, because I think it's so critical for us to identify those core core values because only then can we really move forward with integrity. Otherwise we're getting too much input from the outside and we get distracted because we are social creatures

Erica: exactly. And then that's what leads to burnout in my experience. It's, I'm not, I'm not all of a sudden I feel obligated. Oh, don't ever like obligation to me is my kryptonite.

You know, if it's obligation to myself, I'm able to figure out why I'm rebelling against it usually, or at least acknowledge that I'm rebelling against it. And I set myself up, but if it's obligation to something, it's, it's a wild thing, but those, those core values help help avoid that. It doesn't mean I have not tanked with my decisions in the past.

Like we all flip and fail big and it's awesome. 

Bree: It is awesome. Best thing it is. I'm totally with you on that. And also, I'm going to flip it a little bit because I also am thinking about taking a big risk to have a voice, to really share something that you believe in. Even if it's not, even if you don't know what will happen with it, right.

Is, is also really important to do. It's exciting to do. It's scary to do. . And you recently took a risk like that with your, with your film that you directed. So that was a real shift. 

Erica: I 

Bree: did. I did. It's called here today and it's beautiful.

It's a short film about teenage suicide. 

Erica: It is. And how it came about is the. The young 14 year old who wrote it, came to me wanting some script help and I've helped doctor scripts or given notes or whatnot. And it turned into, she also wanted to star in it and experience that. So that was lovely. And then, at the end of the day, It turned into me directing it.

And so it was this wa talk about beginner's mind collaborating with someone at that time. She ended up being 16 because it took quite a while for the script development. But at that time it was a really interesting thing. So I was educating and directing at the same time. And that was really, really fun.

And we used a bunch of actors from, an acting studio too. And so it was just like this, I mean, we had proper auditions and everything. It just so happened that they all came from one studio, butit was really interesting, but my favorite part of that was sitting in an editing room because I'm always in pre production.

Right. And so, and you know, you know, this, especially, but it was so amazing to work with an editor. And I brought in my own professional editor. And so it was so, Profound working, working in that 

Bree: regard editing. Awesome. Oh, I loved it. I loved it. And it, whenever I see a film like that that's a passion project, right.

That whether that was coming out of a passion for the topic or for the collaboration. I feel like I know the artists a little bit better and it's such, it's such a way into that human connection. 

Erica: I was just listening to a podcast this morning, actually.

and it was a really old one, like from 2015, but it was talking about the voice. Of the artists specifically a writer, but I thought it really applied to every, every artist, especially actors actually. And they were bantering. I wish I could remember the name of it, but I can't. but they were bantering about what that means to have a voice.

Erica: And it essentially ended up being defined as the way you see the world and the specificity in which you're able to communicate that. I love that it's so simple. It gives me goosebumps. Yeah. Cause everyone is worthy of seeing the world in a certain way. And it's just about how one is communicating it and, and not trying to communicate it like someone else.

So even if you are founding a company, even if you have an idea or a vision for something, the way you do it, and the way I do it are unique to us and, and. It's been wild, but again, it has been a sailing excursion, for sure. You know, I'll have an idea or a vision to really hit that mark way out there and then getting there is anything but a straight line.

*************

Bree: Here are my key takeaways from this conversation with Erica Arvold. Number one, the professional path that the creative is never a straight line, but it's a winding journey with twists and turns, steps, and missteps, windfalls, and epic failures.

And if we are prepared to learn from them all, then we find opportunities everywhere. Number two, there is power in cultivating the skill of starting over again. Where are the places that you can create? Small, new beginnings to cultivate beginners, mind and curiosity, whether it's something as big as moving to a new city or learning how to knit that beginner's mind can convey to all aspects of our lives.

Number three, find a mentor and then find a mentee. There is so much to be learned on both sides of those symbiotic relationships. Number four, identify your core values and take the extra effort to do a life audit.

See how much you're staying in alignment on a day-to-day basis. I offer a free core values assessment and you can sign up for it@thelovelyunbecoming.com. Hey, if you're interested in checking out classes at Arvold Warner studio and I highly recommended, this is Arvold dot com. .

 In next week's episode, Erica and I go through the seven ways to manifest change and she riffs on how each one has been instrumental in building a successful and joyous life. So go ahead and click followed to make sure you don't miss the next step. Special, thanks to our sponsors at code-based coworking to dilinistic for the beautiful pause to go artwork and for WTJO and Virginia audio Collective