Jocelyn Nicole Johnson -- On Community, Identity, and Writing "My Monticello" (Part 2)

Jocelyn Nicole Johnson - episode 2

Bree: On this season of Pause To Go, I'm going to be talking with creative change-makers who are truly inspirational. This is Part Two of my interview with Jocelyn Nicole Johnson, author of “My Monticello”. “My Monticello” was recently called “a masterly feat” by the New York Times. Hey, if you haven't listened to Part One yet, take a moment now to give it your ear because we talk about how Jocelyn used real-life events to craft a beautiful and compelling collection of stories that examine race, climate change love, and the very nature of humanity itself.

In this episode of Pause To Go, we talk about Jocelyn's journey as a lifelong writer. her approach to working with agents and publishing houses, and what it's like for her to hand over her story as it begins its transformation to a movie for Netflix creatives, you're going to love this interview. So get out your notepad because you're going to want to take notes for this one.

And here is part two of the interview with Jocelyn Nicole Johnson.

Jocelyn: 

There's a ton of people who want good and want things to be good and just remembering to speak and assert that and put that at the front of our minds.

Even when we're talking about things like school districting and how schools are funded, those small things around us, where it's really easy to start to be, in your own fiefdom and making sure you get yours and your children get yours. I mean, I think the whole title of the book is “My Monticello” and you know, this character in the novella is the descendant of Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings and who is, you know, heir to Monticello, both ways: by the person who conceived of it and designed it and had this wonderful mind and imagination, Thomas Jefferson, and also by the Hemings family who literally were among the craftspeople who built some of the finest parts of it and whose labor along with other enslaved families and created the wealth to even have that house be there and dug the well on the hill and did all this incredible labor.

And, and if not her then who, right? So there's this way it's centering her, but then the answer and the novella is ours. It's not my Monticello. It's ours. And how big is that? Ours? Like, how do we create that space of ours? 

Bree: Who. there's also a line in the novella. And I think I have it right. Is “why do we love what we love?”

Jocelyn, that sticks with me. and it has stuck with me in ways that I didn't expect. First of all, it was just like a sucker punch when I read that. It's a total sucker punch. But what it's also done is, it makes me curious about the assumptions that I make, about what I value and what is good on all levels.

And I think that that kind of gets to a bit of what you're saying from a different perspective, right? Just like your, all of your stories. They come from different perspectives that, that really hit me because I thought about how many things that I value or hold to be true, or think that I love, or DO love!

And where is the line between what I've learned? Like what I think I'm supposed to love and something that is truly, irrefutable and mine to love. And just that shift in thought. Has been transformative. You know, I don't think about it all the time. I think about it a lot. Like, it's near the holidays now and we celebrate Christmas, so we put up a Christmas tree and we're going through all the rituals of Christmas and just thinking about like, why?

Why do I love this? What of these rituals are actually true and what are conditioned responses or what do I think I'm supposed to do? And that conveys to how I respond to people, right? And in every day and what I'm taking in, what television shows I'm watching, what I'm consuming, so I'm just reflecting that back to you because I think it's interesting, which little pieces really like work their way into your cellular makeup.

Right. And really shift who you are. So I wanted to reflect that. 

So Netflix picked this up. It's going to be a movie. That's huge. 

Jocelyn: I, know my, my teenager was like, you wrote a book. Cool, man. He's like, Netflix is making them. Okay! Okay.

Bree: It's funny. Why do we love what we love?

Jocelyn: I know it's like, it's interesting. Yeah. I think that is a way to convey worth in our culture. You know, if someone was willing to make a movie of something or to make a film of something, especially. Netflix in particular, it just has this cache. And so it's really interesting to think about that.

But it is nice too because people watch movies and movies point people to books and stories, and there are people who are never, you know, who just don't read books. And so for this story, to be able to reach them, or maybe to point them to the book as well as wonderful. 

Bree: It's exciting – and you're not the screenwriter for it. Right? So there's a certain amount of handing that over. 

Jocelyn: Absolutely. 

Bree: How does that feel? How does that feel to hand that over?

Jocelyn: I kind of love it. So when we, I didn't know this, but now a days, a lot of times when you write a book, especially if you publish, or your agent feels like it has the potential to possibly be a movie, they'll really shop it out and kind of put it out there for people. And so the, the book sold fairly early, the novella sold to Netflix and to Chernin productions, who's making it really early and they, you know -- I had some say in how it was going to go. And they really - I talked to the people who are kind of the head of team who were making it, and I got to hear what they saw in it and what they valued in it.

And so I felt really, in my case, it was a group of three women that I spoke with. I zoomed with them during the pandemic and I've since met two of them because they've come to the east coast from California and that they decided to come to Monticello, and since I live right near Monticello I got to, you know, have lunch and have coffee with them.

And so I know that they see some of the things in the novella that I value and that they are giving me, some input. Right? How might look, but then on the other hand, it's going to be its own thing. And I think that's kind of fun too, because I think what makes a good book, isn't always what makes a good film.

Jocelyn: And I think there's a way in which it's interesting to see if you could make something that anyone wants to make a version of. That's kind of wonderful. And there's something interesting. And seeing just like you were saying, you pulled out this one line and that was meaningful to you in the specific way.

 You're always interpreting when you make a film. even if I were going to make the screenplay, I would be pulling from it. And so seeing someone else's view on it is interesting to me. 

Bree: And you're still involved in it because you're executive producing too. So it's not completely handing over everything and saying goodbye and putting it into a box and seeing what emerges.

Jocelyn: Absolutely. I love that. I liked that I get to, and they actually have so far, have been really respectful of that. And kind of even with picking the screenwriter, like. You know, have a kind of, some sway as to whether this felt comfortable and right, and so forth.

So - 

Bree: that's exciting. I'm excited for exactly what you said -- that it's going to reach a different audience. You know, that that has that capacity. And for people who are more drawn to film, it's another way in too, right?  

I want to take a little bit of a step back because a lot of my listeners are people who are, creatives, who are, also finding ways to transform their own lives.

So in this way, I'm looking to your journey as an artist/writer, right? And one of the things that. I have really been impressed by --so we've known each other for like 18 years now, which is just crazy. I'm thinking of us when we had little, little babies and, and you've been writing the whole time and I really believe that things lead to things -- and from our conversations that we've had before, I think that you are pretty similar. It's not a question of like, nobody liked what I had to write until now. It's that there's an evolution. So can you tell us a little bit about your evolution as a writer whose voice has now come to a larger audience. 

Jocelyn: Yeah, I think that's, that's a fair way to say it for sure. So I've been really interested in writing and drawing pretty much from day one when I was a kid, I don't know why that is, but that is something I've been doing. I always point out that like my pinned tweet on Twitter was this picture I found, I found going through old papers from elementary school and I found this book I had made of drawings.

And then on the cover, like the inside flap, I pasted like a school picture and I wrote “This is the author. She was seven when she made this.” So apparently. I've been wanting to be an author for a long time. And I also recognize that it needs to be in third person, which I think is pretty cool at seven in my, like, crooked handwriting at any rate. But yes, I've been writing stories for a really long time and kind of, since I moved to Charlottesville and, 2000 I've been, I've kind of upped my game and I've had like, a manuscript that kind of started to get agents and, you know, I took a class early on where someone said, oh, you should be an MFA.

You should do this. You should do that. And that kind of inspired me to up my game a little bit and think about a bigger audience because I was already writing and so forth. And so, it's kind of been these little stairsteps of I'll submit this to a literary magazine and I will go for this local contest.

The writers group at UVA. I will, you know, write something for that. I will have a blog about my son growing up and have an audience in this specific way with these tiny little essays and images. And, and so it has been this. Stair-step thing. And then with publishing, I've acactually --  this is my third agent.

So I've had a project with a first agent and then a project with a second agent and then this project. And so it's been, a lot of striving trying for that larger audience and it not quite working out for a variety of reasons. And I'm so happy actually, that it worked out the way it did in the sense that I feel like this debut is so much richer just for having more time to think about what I want to say, Also, I felt more because I had two projects that went out with agents that were very reasonable projects, you know, that were good projects and didn't sell by the time I got to this project, it made me a lot more stubborn and have a clear sense of what I wanted to do regardless of outcome, because I knew that there was no, I mean, I never really actually tried to write to the market because I'm just myself and I couldn't, but I also just knew by that point that there was no way to do that. There was no other option for me, but, but then to write what I wanted to write and find people who were exciting about it, who were excited about it. It just made me a lot -- I just had a much clearer view. I was like, I want to write these short stories. I know what I'm thinking about. I hadn't written the novella yet when I got my agent, but I found someone who was excited about what I was already doing and, and really had, had taken unknown, short story writers and really found them good homes and publishing and didn't say, oh, where's your novel, write a novel first, do this, do that -- who really understood and was excited about that. And that was like a great first step. And then finding publishers who also, and that person was in a position to help me, you know, create excitement and editors who wanted to also do that and so forth.

So it really, I think it helped me to have a lot of, to have it be slow or to have things not work out exactly as I had intended them to early on. As far as the actual work, I think it really helped out and all that time I was going to writers’ workshops. I was writing stories. I have a writer group that I've been with for 10 years.

I was developing friendships. And so that made the book coming out even more fun too, because like, in my page of acknowledgements, it has like a bazillion people. Cause I just like mention every workshop feature I've ever been with. Worrisome too - because I was like, I'm going to leave someone out by accident, but it was really important to me to show that this was the culmination.

It wasn't like out of nowhere, it was out of a lot of places outside of everywhere 

Bree: that also speaks to your sensitivity, taking other people's, experiences into consideration. It's just, I just have to point that out and acknowledge. So you've gone on a number of retreats. Like that's been a thing that you've done most summers, 

Jocelyn: right?

Yeah. So I've gone either to workshops or retreats, early on, it was more workshops. So going to somewhere where a workshop for writers might be, you know, you go with either a published author of some sort, whether they're super fancy or just a wonderful published author, you know, and go and you or a writer, who's just.

Person. Who's a teacher who has an MFA usually. And you bring your stories, a group of you. Do you read each other's stories and you talk about what's working, you talk about what might be other possibilities and you have this kind of teacher facilitate that. And I did that a lot. both that kind of fancy places, like Tin House, which.

in Portland, which is like a writer, was a writer magazine for a long time and has a really great workshop. And then just other places, around Virginia and in driving distance where I went for a week in the summer and did that, and then also retreats, which are great, like Virginia center of the creative arts, where writers, visual artists and composers go for, you know, one.

Jocelyn: Eight weeks and live there and have a studio and just work and really don't have instruction, but just have time 

Bree: when you, when you did your, your, one of your first readings at. The four new dominion bookshop, which is a local independent bookstore in Virginia in Charlottesville. And I just want to say support your local, independent bookstore.

They are, they are the heart of communities. you had a number of people from, so I happened to be sitting in a group of your, writing group. Participants like people who have been in writing group with you, it was so much fun to sit with them and to feel their feeling of, being included in the success really exciting.

And as that was happening, as I was watching them, celebrating you, taking that in, I was also thinking about the gift of a writing group is feedback and sharing. But I also thought, how do you keep it straight? Like, how do you stay in alignment? Because it seems like it might be easy to veer off into other people's opinions.

Was there ever a time that you felt like you might have gone out of alignment and how do you pull it back? 

Jocelyn: Yeah, that's a really good question. I think I had, luckily one of my first workshop experiences with was with this writer, Amy Bender at, at Tin House. And she's she drew this like graph on the board with.

A dot on one side, like a segmented line, like a dot align and another dot. And she was like, here's listening to everyone's opinion in a workshop and here's listening to no one's opinion. And she kind of like made this mark towards, toward like a little towards, off center towards listening to no one. And she's like, basically, like, you know, you are here.

It would be silly not to be changed by other people. Why would you want it, you know, come in communion with people. If you didn't, weren't open to change. But you also have to know how to contextualize what people say towards orienting you towards what you're trying to do. And to know that if you tried to follow everyone, you're going to get contradictory information from different people.

So it would be silly like you would be chasing nothing. So you have you kind of your north star of what you're thinking about, what sounds right to you, what feels right to you? You're recognizing where information is coming from. And you're thinking about how it's being brought to you and you know, the person's character and how you feel about their writing.

How you think about what they're trying to say. Are they the audience you're imagining, do they get what you're trying to get at? And then you're kind of like making all these decisions about what to pull from people. And so I think there is an art to it, but it's nice because I've been doing. At a much more casual level before I got to these more formal spaces and it helped me to develop my own ear for what I wanted to do.

So I think I've always had a pretty good sense of, Hmm. That's not where I'm going to go with that. Or that actually makes a ton of sense to me. And I'm absolutely gonna think about how I can use what that person said. or that person I totally disagreed with them, but it makes me think of something else I want to do.

You know? So it's like, you can, you just have to have kind of the right mindset. 

Bree: Yeah. So often I feel, first of all, I think that's solid advice, not just for writers, but for anyone who is putting anything out in a public forum, whether that's an idea, a piece of art, a business, anything. And I do think that, that there is so much value in addition to

constructive feedback that that sort of directly changes what we're doing to also getting the sounding board of like, oh no, this, this helps me to clarify how I feel about this a little bit more. So what's next? What happens 

Jocelyn: next? Yeah, so I am, I. Actually contractually obligated to read another book for all they laugh.

I said this earlier somewhere and they just, my editor and everyone at home just giggled at me. Cause I'm so silly, but I am I'm I'm undergrad contract to write another book and I would write another book no matter what. but it's a different level of. It's different to write a book where you have no idea if anyone will ever read it or what it will become.

And you'll just have all the time in the world. And you're just working forward then to write a book where you know, that it will likely be published and there are people who actually are waiting for it. so there's a way in which I'm trying to forget that and not think about that so much. and to not think about other people's expectations.

But just think about, well, what would be interesting for me to write about and where can I create a space? What, where, what can I attach my ideas to? what kind of storyline can I attach my ideas to where I can talk about things that are kind of my wheelhouse and that are really maybe familiar, but also have enough interest in difference.

That it'll be interesting for me and for readers. So it isn't restating the things I've already said. And so that's what I've been working on. And. Actually went on a, not a writer's retreat, but I just went like out of town to an Airbnb on a little mini retreat with my partner, who, you know, my husband and we, and I had got like, all these things came together.

And I was like, I know my idea. I'm so excited because I think as a creative person, you often get your best ideas. When you're just doing something else, your brain just, you can't like barrel into a good idea. You just have to kind of be in the world and be open and pull things together in a specific way.

And so yes. To 

Bree: release into a good idea. Yeah. Hmm. Well, I will be thinking of you and, and I really hope for you,the space that you need , to receive whatever inspiration you need and I know that you will create that space for yourself. You're you seem to be really good at that.

I mean, I don't know, you have to be really good at it to have worked full-time as an art teacher for so many years, raising a child, being, a very active member of the Charlottesville community. You, you still carved out that time. So I'm certain that you will. Again, and thank you. Thank you for all that you're doing.

Thank you for being an inspiration and thank you for being my friend. 

Jocelyn: Oh, thank you, Brie. You too. Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. 

Bree: Here are my key takeaways from this conversation with Jocelyn number one, things lead to things. Joslin talks about her writer's journey of being like a series of stairsteps, where she had multiple opportunities to up her game, refine her voice and figure out what she really wanted to happen as a writer.

Number two, find your support systems.

Jocelyn has been in writer's groups, writing retreats and writing workshops, where she has been able to share in her experiences and garner feedback that helped her shape her work both directly and indirectly. Plus, she made a lot of friends along the way. Number three, develop a creator's mindset, know what you want your creation to be, find that north star so that when you do get feedback, you can discern what serves your project and what feedback you can respectfully decline.

Hey, we love to see Jocelyn's book my Monticello out in the wild. So at these episodes inspire you to run to your local independent bookstore to buy your copy of my Monticello, post a picture of it on social media and tag Jocelyn, Nicole Johnson, and the lovely unbecoming. Our handles are in the show notes.

The best way to support authors, artists and podcasters is to share your recommendations with your. Thanks also to the very first Pause To Go sponsor Codebase Coworking, and to W T J U and the Virginia audio collective for your support. Also special shout out to for the Pause To Go artwork and to my show intern Camden Luck who has been a lifesaver this month.