Zap and Bree:

Y'all, this transcript was generated by AI technology and has not been edited for accuracy. Computers don't get everything right, so I'm blaming all the mistakes on them :)

[00:00:00] Bree: As a child of the south who also became a teenager in the eighties, there's no way that I could talk about time without mentioning the verse from Ecclesiastes three made famous by the movie Footloose and The Birds to Everything. There is a season and a time to every purpose under heaven. . A time to be born and a time to die.

[00:00:31] A time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted. A time to kill and a time to heal. A time to break down and a time to build up. A time to weep, and a time to laugh, A time to mourn and a time to dance. When I planned this interview with my friend z McConnell, I simply wanted to explore the concept of a time to dance.

[00:01:05] Zap McConnell is a dancer and a choreographer, as well as a visual artist, director, teacher performer, environmental activist, and filmmaker. I've known Zap for years, and I simply love the way her brain wraps around big concepts like Time and love , 

[00:01:28] having a conversation with her about a time to dance. Was a real treat, not only because of her expansive view on dance and movement. But also because of her whole take on art, activism and community engagement. 

[00:01:46] Bree: What I didn't expect was that soon after our conversation and before I had a chance to edit this episode, my dear grandmother Mimi, if you've listened to this podcast for any length of time, , you know who she is, and if you haven't, I encourage you to go back to listen to season three, episode 10, which is my interview with her.

[00:02:13] Anyway, my 98 year old Mimi found out that she had stage four lung cancer, and I spent the last couple of months in Georgia with her. And then as much as we all hated it, it was Mimi's time to die. . And so now as I prepare this episode on a time to dance, I share it from the vantage point of my time to mourn, a time to mourn and a time to dance.

[00:02:47] Both are important, each has value, and though we may live in a culture that wants us to gloss over both and dive headlong into a productivity, , I needed to take time to mourn, and now I'm taking a little more time to regroup. This season on time has been wonderful and I cherished exploring the topic with you and with brilliant and thoughtful guests.

[00:03:16] But this season is changing and I'm gonna pause the Pause to Go podcast and take a little time to plant the seeds for the next season, and I'll return with more information about that in due time. for now though, if you'd like to get the occasional updates and usings. You can find me on Instagram at the lovely I'm becoming if you wanna work with me as a coach.

[00:03:40] I have two more individual client openings that will begin in May, so I'm interviewing for that now. And if you want to just casually engage creatively, you can join the rehearsal room. An ongoing drop in group, which has just been a balm.

[00:03:59] All winter long, or you can drop me a to let me know what you are up to. I would really love to hear from you, but for now, let's take a little time to dance with the marvelous and talented z McConnell. 

[00:04:18] Zap: and there's my alarm. We're on time. Oh, my can . 

[00:04:22] Let me make sure I turn all the alarms off. Okay. That's how I manage my time through alarms often. . 

[00:04:28] Bree: I do too. It's a good strategy, . 

[00:04:31] Zap: As long as they don't create like some sort of physical anxiety in your nervous system.

[00:04:39] Bree: Zap. Do you have different sounds for different types of alarms? some are the sounds that are like, get your button gear and some of the sounds like, hey, this is gentle reminder . 

[00:04:54] Zap: I wish that I was that tech savvy. I could do it. I think that I just have such a limited, tolerance for technology, even though I use it often, that I just pick the most soft, Hey, you need to do a thing, but let's not stab you in the eye with,the sound quality to get you in gear.

[00:05:12] So it's just the one sound I gotcha. I should think about it. I don't know. I, I'm secretly a lud eyed at heart, but I'm definitely making workarounds happen and diving into the technology world. I mean, I wanna be here present in 2023,

[00:05:30] Bree: Well, whatever, ritualizes, the coming to the present moment is super useful, which brings us to our topic today, , which is really looking at dance, looking at the relationship of time to dance and a dance to time , just a simple little exploration. Nothing lofty about that at 

[00:05:55] Zap: all, ? No, I mean, I do think that,I have manifested the ability to tell time within my body in a way that a lot of dancers have.

[00:06:06] especially because a lot of the work that I did early on when I first discovered dance in my twenties with the Zenn Monkey project based in Charlottesville, we would just spend hours and hours doing improvisational scores, but we would put timers on it. And, so you could really allow yourself to go into an untethered space, as in.

[00:06:31] I'm untethered perhaps to gravity, perhaps to the room that I'm in. definitely to time. Usually there was a witness holding time so you could just let that go and fully experience whatever investigation we were pursuing. but you do that enough and pretty much, yeah. After three minutes, I know what three minutes feels like.

[00:06:52] I know what a minute feels like. I know what 10 minutes feels like. But, but I do feel like that kind of investigation is something that,that pursues everything that I'm looking at in the world, as in I have a lens that, that experience the world through. And it's usually through dance. So it could be time, it could be space, it could be embodiment, it could be the, The shape of the trees and the foreground and the background.

[00:07:21] And I know that's like visual arts, but it's also dance. And I'm also an interdisciplinary artist. but the first thing that actually comes to my mind is choreography and dance. even just putting up a sound score so I can make sure that I get to my interview with Bree, lack on time to me is a mini choreography , with the alarms.

[00:07:43] That's my sound score. that's my dance. I love that. So 

[00:07:47] Bree: let's come back then and go back to the basics with this, which is, as an interdisciplinary artist and complex and wonderful human being, what is your definition of dance? 

[00:08:04] Zap: Oh, Oh my gosh. always so complicated, right? what is art or what is love?

[00:08:09] I do think that I have a very broad concept of dance, that maybe, wouldn't align with, all dancers in the world. I've definitely allowed it to be infiltrated by my deep love for science fiction. And, so in a lot of ways I feel like dance is movement. So that could be grasses moving by the wind.

[00:08:37] That could be, the blood inside your body, moving through your veins. That could be,the visceral feeling that you get when you read a really great passage in a book. . it also could be, an incredible ballet. You know, it's not like I reject some of the more classic, forms of dance. I just, there's just so many different ways that people express through their bodies, and some have been formalized and some are ritual and some are culture.

[00:09:08] it's definitely a frontier, although is that word problematic? ? I think it is . Um, to me, dance is also experimentation and exploration and a way to gain knowledge. I've definitely seen musicians try to remember what chord they made or a song they created in the past, and then they reference into their body.

[00:09:33] and that allows them to go to this other space where they remember the music themselves. , I mean, I see dance everywhere,walking in a grocery store and, um, seeing how people inhabit bodies or how they move three time in space or how they lift a basket or pick out a can of green beans, that to me could be a baby choreography.

[00:09:57] so in a lot of ways I feel like dance is everything, but that's so broad and annoying also. You know, what is love? there's just these like broad topics and I think maybe our culture in the United States might have a more truncated concept of dance. . But I do think that's broadening and opening and there's just so many styles and so many ways that people can express themselves.

[00:10:23] They can tell a story, there can be, a visceral moment where there's a release of things that have been inhabiting your nervous system or your muscle structure. It's a way, to retain memory and, it can be a celebration. It's a, I do think that we access ritual, through the body in that stance. I've been lucky enough to study, with the awesome late Asha Greer, um, Japanese trade tea and, she formed the Heartwood tea School in Batesville, Virginia.

[00:10:58] And that is so dance. it is, and it's super hardcore. Like they're very specific movements. Definitely a choreography, but you're also serving, you're expressing, you're giving, you're creating, a pillow of time space continuum where your guest can enjoy,watching the steam curl from the teapot.

[00:11:25] every little moment is curated to just have a little mini moment of joy. And so not that dance always is giving you joy. I think it can convey a lot of things, but, I could go on and on. I'm a real nerd , so 

[00:11:40] Bree: Love it.

[00:11:41] The things that you've 

[00:11:42] brought up here so far, ritual.

[00:11:44] I think ritual is Key to having a stronger relationship with time, a more present relationship with time. However we can bring ritual into our lives that is meaningful to us, I think is super important. So the ritual of dance, I really appreciate the ritual of theater.

[00:12:03] I appreciate, right? they're similar Performance. Performance is highly ritualistic in general. but also this idea of the body having a memory, that our conscious mind doesn't. Jl Moreno, who was the inventor of psychodrama, uh, said the bo the body remembers what the mind forgets.

[00:12:28] Other people have said it too in different ways, but. , but it's so true how a movement can unlock a 

[00:12:37] whole new 

[00:12:38] perspective or way of thinking. So when you say that you see things through the lens of dance, it makes so much sense to me. in my planner, I write down my intentions for each day and I went back and looked like, what have I done this month? And every single day I wrote movement as one of the intentions for the day.

[00:13:02] And of course it doesn't just mean exercise, it means to be present with movement and that really seems to be what so much of your work is about. can I bring you back? I'm really curious cuz you mentioned, your love for science fiction. 

[00:13:21] Zap: Oh yeah. I. . I was lucky in that I've grown up at reading science fiction.

[00:13:27] when I was a child my dad got analog, which was like a, I don't know if it was a monthly little magazine with science fiction books. And I grew up reading all the time. it who knows if I would've done it nowadays because we have all the devices but back then that was, either I'm gonna be outside climbing a tree or reading or both.

[00:13:47] And I just fell in love with science fiction and weirdly as someone who's highly suspicious of technology and more rooted in, the earth and protecting the earth. I give my little side eye of okay, where did that come from? What resources are we depleting? How are we removing ourselves from breathing the air and having our feet on the ground and realizing other creatures are here with us and, we affect them.

[00:14:16] But science fiction really has helped me, in all of the rapid transformation that has been happening in our world. Sometimes friends of mine who I think of as more technically inclined or shocked by certain things, I'm like, oh, William Gibson covered that 20 years ago and blah, blah, blah. Or I definitely, have spent a lot of time, more in cyberpunk science fiction.

[00:14:40] I mean,there's so many you can really nerd out, but I just organically find my way and friends recommend certain books or I'll follow things or I'll go back in time and. , oh, let's try out Ursula la Gwen. Or Octavia Butler. yeah, I usually have a science fiction book that I'm reading or I'll refer back to one or fantasy. Sometimes they blend, 

[00:15:03] Bree: do you think that influences your movement in any way 

[00:15:06] Zap: oh, sure. And in a certain sense, science fiction is a gateway to graphic novels and one of the more intense pieces I did at the beginning of my dance, making three of swords,like we embodied characters from the Immortals that, Neil Guyman had created.

[00:15:24] And, we had destruction and desire and destiny and delirium and, then the costuming and then the way that they inhabited their bodies were, created from scores. Investigating some of that, background work, like everyone looked up their characters and got the graphic novels, but you could do your own research.

[00:15:45] and honestly, I research and nerd out all the time. I'm usually just like tracking things and that finds its way into movement exploration. But I do it in a tricky way. I've, I, I realized, cause I came from theater and switched to dance. I rejected theater. Great parts of it, and I'm definitely theatrical, but I guess I rejected words,and moved into dance and movement very late in life, according to the classical ideal of what a dancer does, does, and pushed against that my whole life.

[00:16:22] But,in that exploration, I felt like gave myself a lot of permission to work with dancers with theatrical components. But often if you said something really frontal lobe, then a dancer potentially would show you and not be it, not do it. So I had to find these workarounds, which started.

[00:16:47] forming my style of directing or creating work, co-creating. cuz I really do co-create with any movers or dancers that I, am lucky enough to do projects with. we're in it together. And, I definitely resist calling myself the choreographer since they're creating their own movement in their body.

[00:17:07] And that's just, it's just another form of dance. but yeah, all of that sifts in either the process of getting to movement or the concepts behind the process to get to movement or the actual movement itself. 

[00:17:22] Bree: Years ago I was at the pool with my daughter and I ended up having this.

[00:17:27] Little boy who is maybe, I don't know, 11 years old, who sat next to me and struck up a conversation and he was reading a science fiction novel and he was very excited to tell me all about it. And I asked him what he liked about it, and he said, I, the rules and I like it when they break the rules.

[00:17:50] And him saying, that has stuck with me for all of these years. So that's probably been, about 18 years now, I think about that. And then that also makes me think about dance because I grew up studying ballet. I and I danced through high school and into college, ballet and modern. And my dance life was really, Bound by a lot of rules, 

[00:18:21] can you talk a little bit about rules and 

[00:18:25] Zap: breaking rules? I get in trouble with a lot of my artist friends, cuz we might all have very different, strong opinions about this, but I did go to North Carolina School of the Arts. I auditioned and actually got in into theater and then took a movement class, thank you Bob Francesconi.

[00:18:43] And,and then just felt I was falling out of love with theater while simultaneously discovering a voice and an untapped, source of, creative fire in movement. And, Julie Warden was a senior and she utilized me in her senior thesis in dance. And I was like, okay. I, sold, but I was 19 and. . the closest I ever got to your experience is I, took one ballet class as a child at a studio that also had gymnastics.

[00:19:15] And after one ballet class, I'm like, this sucks and it hurts my body and people are mean and what are they doing over there tumbling on the mats. and so I switched to gymnastics and then eventually left. cuz they wanted me to, look like Nadia Koe and not eat. And my mom was like,oh hell no.

[00:19:36] So thank you Mom , but, hooray for moms 

[00:19:39] Bree: who get it. 

[00:19:40] Zap: Yeah. Yeah. And that was, a while back. So she was ahead of her time. but when I got into School of the Arts, I did appreciate the conservatory aspect of it. It was definitely a different school. Now, the era back then was,our job is to break you, to break your spirit, to make you nothing, and then build you back up. It was done to us.

[00:20:02] So then this is just the way, and you'll be in our image. And only then only when you know the rules can you break them. And I experienced that. And I think that's oppression. I think that's colonization. I reject it utterly. For me, if someone else wants to follow that, great. It's a black and white kind of binary construct.

[00:20:26] Like, hi, you must know the rules before you can break them. Well, there's all this in between space and there's just so many people that. , if you knew the rules, you're already potentially constrained by them without even knowing, like it's in your body. It's in the way that you approach the work. And potentially if you don't know the rules, you don't know to put white paint on a canvas before you put a bright pastel color and you want a bright pastel color,yeah, you're not gonna get what you want, but you might get this other thing that's extraordinary.

[00:21:05] And so there's, that's where I think some of my resistance, at least personally, goes with what if you venture out into a field that you're interested in, but you have the curiosity of someone who.

[00:21:18] hasn't already decided what they're supposed to know, and so much can be discovered. that way of thinking is all in the tech world. that's applauded beyond reason, and all these people are making these huge leaps and making all this money and thinking outside the box. so then why is there this old-fashioned resistance to that, into some of the classical art forms?

[00:21:42] And some of it is based in trying to like continue to find our way to support and funding. And so there's this kind of snobbery that might not like a hierarchy, that might, it's all very complicated and that could be like a two hour conversation . but I definitely feel like.

[00:22:04] it's a personal choice. And for me, a lot of times I might learn a rule, but I might just decide to make a dance for film feature length and never have done anything like that before. And just do it and bring along some people who've made film before and a group of amazing, collaborators and just go for it.

[00:22:24] And maybe I might find a unique way that, works specifically for me. Maybe I'll just naturally start doing things that other filmmakers do because the way that it works sorts itself out in a particular way. Maybe I'll fail horribly and waste tons of time,, but yeah,that's my take on it.

[00:22:47] And, to work in progress. I'm always also. Eyeballing with the suspicious eye, my own very strong opinions. I'm like, how about now? are, does that still work for you? are you, static in your growth because you made this decision in your twenties and you're gonna stick by it, even though new information is coming on.

[00:23:06] Bree: But so far with,breaking the rules, you gotta know ' I say no . I think It can be really challenging for those of us who are people pleasers or have really embraced the role of the good girl or the good student or the good, whatever, 

[00:23:22] You follow the rules because then you're rewarded for the rules. and sometimes, certainly in my work, definitely in my life, there's been a process of unbecoming. My, my company is called the lovely unbecoming. So where can we have greater awareness of our full self in a society that has expectations that we take on, right?

[00:23:48] So how do we navigate that in a fully embodied way? And what you've just said made me think that one of the things we can do is when we hit up against, something that could be a tool, could be a rule, could be, an expectation that we can look at it and really take a moment to say, is this potential gatekeeping?

[00:24:13] is this going to, is this designed 

[00:24:16] Zap: to keep 

[00:24:17] Bree: some people, maybe me maybe somebody else out. Is this a gatekeeping device of some sort or is this a permeable boundary that I can play with? Because gatekeeping I have no use for, I want to be as aware that as I can be, right? But a permeable boundary, that's a tool to bounce off of, to play with, to explore, to to get curious around.

[00:24:47] Maybe we can get curious around both. . But, 

[00:24:50] Zap: anyway, I think you can get voice around both because I think that, if I'm drawing on a piece of paper and my drawing wants to be bigger than that piece of paper, like there's no more paper. So there's a rule like, depends on how you frame it.

[00:25:04] So my drawing can only be as large or within that boundary. That's a hard boundary, that piece of paper. But maybe then I glue it to another piece of paper. So it's just, and then with dance, there's certain things like, it's pretty good to warm up your body before you start exerting it, although there's some people who resist that, especially in, martial arts.

[00:25:27] So there's just that. I think that, to circle back and finish a point, maybe I left dangling with, being at School of the Arts, I was lucky enough that weirdly, some professors let me, into the dance program, even though I hadn't auditioned and I had never taken a formal dance class and I was behind, I was with people who had danced like you had their whole life.

[00:25:51] I didn't even know about how to go across the floor and I was in this conservatory and luckily my classmates, helped me and didn't trample me to death. but the amount of every morning like, wow, is this really what you're gonna do? go and be foolish in this class. Look like the fool. have no clue what's happening just because you love moving and you're interested in this form, layer after layer of ego, just had to be peeled off and you just had to be curious and go for it.

[00:26:22] And I, I also knew I would never. Be a ballerina. Do you know what I mean? that wasn't, I didn't have that drive. I had already rejected it early in life. So already those constructions of, how to approach succeeding in dance, weren't there. And I, it allowed me to be curious in a way that I think,would be harder for someone who had been trained their whole life.

[00:26:48] Like the amount of training that you have to, unlayer to then get to a more authentic self. but ultimately there's no right and wrong. That's just my journey. You've had your journey. but I do like the fact that, dance is becoming, Available to all different kinds of dance and movement and people and bodies and ages in a way that in the eighties and nineties, you know, there was a real concept of like, oh, you're either this or you suck and don't even try .

[00:27:20] And so in that way dance has been horribly disfiguring to people's bodies, their psyches, their minds. it's, there's a spectrum in there. 

[00:27:31] Bree: So I'm guessing that you would say that it's never too late to learn to dance ? 

[00:27:37] Zap: No. one of my favorite top 15 performances is seeing Merce Cunningham, who, I don't even know how old he was, but he was, up there and he walked on stage and did three movements he could have.

[00:27:51] This is one of my favorite things to say. He could have picked up a paper bag and crumbled it and we would have been riveted. it was astonishing. And that really changed me, that in seeing Sufi dancers early in my, exploration of that world really changed me. Where I did have the teachers who you have to retire at 35.

[00:28:14] beautiful dancers could out dance. Every single one of us in class choreographed incredible pieces, but they had bought hook, line and sinker that whole bullshit. And so when I would say, Hey, are you going to perform? Oh no, I don't perform anymore. And it, I was like, but why? I see you in class every day.

[00:28:33] You're gorgeous. and so again, like some of that is also wrapped around, now it's more, gender fluid, but back then it's really was oriented around women's bodies. cause you could be a man and walking to dance and you were a rockstar. Mm-hmm. . But the 500 women who had auditioned for the one part had to have the most perfect extension, the most perfect body type, no ounce of fat, turned out in such a manner, arms that could do this or that.

[00:29:03] And so some of it is LinkedIn, healing and, really embodying feminism like that, rejection of these ways to, really abuse our bodies. Into some form that isn't who created that form, And then we could go back into history and look at colonization and, another four hour conversation,

[00:29:25] But I think that, absolutely is never too late to learn how to dance. It's just what kind of dance are you gonna do? if you're 90 years old and in a wheelchair, you totally can dance. You may not do an arabesque. but you can dance. There's just so many other ways and forms that you can express using your body.

[00:29:44] And,so I don't mean to say that we're all gonna be able to add 110, jump up and down with our legs spread out, like in a, the Nutcracker. but who knows with technology, cyborgs. that could be possible too. When we clean, 

[00:30:04] Bree: we'll have avatars. Avatars that do 

[00:30:05] Zap: that. , yes. Avatars or we, yeah. We clone our bodies and pour our soul spirits into the new, I don't even know.

[00:30:15] Like we could, there's just so much science fiction. That's kim Stanley. red Mars, blue Mars, green Mars. I forget the order, but that's an amazing series. I'll, 

[00:30:27] Bree: I'll find the name of it and I'll link it in the show notes so people can look that one up and 

[00:30:33] Zap: explore it.

[00:30:34] I've heard through a friend that now he says that he doesn't agree with that science premise anymore, but it was fascinating to think about. I don't know. I've never met him, but I've read his books. it's tricky, right? Because 

[00:30:45] Bree: there's. Science that holds up to the scientific measures that we have at this point, right?

[00:30:53] Cuz they're ever-changing. We have human brains that can only understand what we understand , and that's ever-evolving. But then there's science for sort of the philosophy of it, science as, as a philosophical query and, and maybe even spiritual depending on what the science fiction is.

[00:31:17] You bring up embracing dance regardless of age or body type or ability that, that we can. Find ways to, to bring dance into our lives. It makes me think I'm about to go down to visit my grandmother she's 98 and she, wow. Just had, I know she just had a little surgery the other day.

[00:31:44] She was feeling pretty poorly and she was feeling a little better after the surgery. And she said, let's go line dancing when you 

[00:31:51] Zap: when you come visit me. 

[00:31:53] Bree: So if she's still up for it, I'm going line dancing with her next week. I think she just felt like, Ugh, my body has just been through hell. If it's feeling good at all, I want to use it in a way that is celebratory and good, which is just such an inspiration to me.

[00:32:10] can you give us some ways that people might be able to bring more dance into their everyday 

[00:32:17] Zap: lives?

[00:32:18] I can, and I think that because I have approached stance from these more unique perspectives for so long, it's easy for me to think when you're cooking, turn on some music and as you're moving through the kitchen, that's dance, But, for somebody who might feel shy in their body or hasn't broken down all of the constraints about, what dances and what you're supposed to look like and what, if someone sees me,sometimes it's hard for me to put that perspective on, but I do just think that there's, so many different ways that you could approach dance.

[00:32:54] There's so many different classes you could take,out there, beginning classes. maybe you want to do line dancing or you want to learn flamingo when it's something that you shared with me that you love. but you could also learn a hip hop class. Mickey List dancer in Charlottesville.

[00:33:10] she's always learning the new dances. but if you wanted something where there's not as many rules, there's, all these different movements that kind of happened 20 years ago where you could do five rhythms or, dance journey or, I don't know all the words. Or you could go to a wave where people are in their own space.

[00:33:30] expressing themselves however they wanna feel, that might make someone want to like, tear their hair off and run screaming in the opposite direction. So then that's a beautiful thing that the pandemic brought along, even though I was highly suspicious of this too. there's a myriad of dance classes that you can do on Zoom, so you can be in the privacy of your own home.

[00:33:52] I'm gonna try out this Gaga class. And you can also just dance it out, turn the music on or respond to the silence and the sounds in your room and move about in unique ways that you hope no one sees, but you're doing your own thing. I do think that like Dancing for the Stars, I think I was talking to Jen Tweel Kelly and she was so excited years ago when this got really popular with pop culture because.

[00:34:20] Yeah. Sometimes people think that certain concepts of dancers are that we're assholes, like they're stuck up. And I definitely get nervous about some of the weird dances that I make that someone, maybe one of my regulars at the restaurant that I worked at might come and feel like a jerk cuz they don't understand anything that's happening.

[00:34:43] And so that is true and that's a whole nother subject matter, but with Dancing for the Stars, all of a sudden dance very popular to a broad, expansion across the United States and the world of people who may not even like dance or they hear dance and they think wedding or stripper. But , just look at all the different ways that people, share their joy, share their emotions, express themselves through their bodies.

[00:35:13] they're out there. And there's also, if you look around, I do feel like there's, free classes here and there, but the other side of that is to run or own a dance studio is really hard. I've done it. I haven't owned one, but I've run one. I swear I'll never do it again because our country doesn't really pay for dance or pay for the arts in the same way that other countries do.

[00:35:38] And so it's really easy for me to say, go take a class. Go look at, your, Gathering spaces in your city and see if there's a movement class or a dance class. but there they may not be as much as we would want, because of financial stability within just a beautiful space where you can move. Why would that be so hard to maintain now?

[00:36:01] It's with a good floor especially. Yeah. a floor is super 

[00:36:06] Bree: important. that's for sure. and it is true, , I think of other countries where the arts in general are. better funded by the government, but also the culture allows for more expressive arts and values. It more, we, again, that's probably a topic for another episode when we can rail against the, status of the arts in the United States.

[00:36:33] When I lived in Amsterdam for a year, and in that year I was going to, a lot of theater in Dutch, and I don't speak Dutch or only shop Dutch. And, and what I really did was go see a lot of dance and I became attuned to, to dance. And I had resisted it.

[00:36:56] As a former dancer, I felt a lot of anxiety when I would go see dance and suddenly it opened up the feeling of connection with other humans. And so I think that we come to it in different ways. It was really lovely to live in a place where there was easy access to dance. It was very affordable

[00:37:21] everyone went to see, music and dance all the time. it wasn't, an elitist endeavor at 

[00:37:30] Zap: all, which 

[00:37:30] Bree: was right. Just. Really important and invaluable. You brought this up before and it just made me think about how bearing a witness to the choreography of nature or the natural choreography of humans too.

[00:37:49] You mentioned like watching someone walk in a grocery store. Even just taking a moment to be present as a witness and to look at how are people moving through a space, an airport is a great way to do that 

[00:38:05] Zap: The choreography. 

[00:38:06] Bree: In bearing witness. to that choreography, you are becoming part of the dance as the witness to the dance so even if you're not taking a class just bearing witness to the movement of people or birds flying or leaves falling down from trees or flowers, growing, who knows?

[00:38:30] Zap: I mean you could talk about it as the lens or the experience what is your physiological response to being a witness to those things? And it could be subtle. you could be in that same airport as you said, having your moment with dance and no one knows.

[00:38:46] now is that too out there for someone who's I just wanna start dancing and I'm 67 and all I know is ballet, maybe or not. You know, like, what is your elbow doing? Do you feel tension in your shoulders? Like where is there movement in your ankles? If you're standing in a long line, is there a unique way to continue to support your body but find different muscle groups that's dance?

[00:39:12] so I do wish, and yeah, when we solve that problem in the future, the support for the arts in the United States, I do wish that there was. More of that kind of, experience that you had in Amsterdam in the United States where just anybody could afford to go. And usually that means that the dancers are being supported by the community or by the government so they have a living wage.

[00:39:39] Because I can't tell you how many people are like, oh, when are you doing your next big epic dance piece? And they don't realize that if I break even, I'm e like that's even good, but usually I'm losing money. so in order to experience dance where you're witnessing it, the dancers need to be able to support themselves in the most basic ways.

[00:40:02] And how can. , make that happen. but yeah, that's going a little bit too much into supporting the arts. 

[00:40:08] Bree: Not, I don't know, maybe it's not, maybe that's where this needs to go, , the reason that we started this conversation was really because I was looking at uses of time and I came upon the Ecclesiastes.

[00:40:20] there is a time for everything in a season for every activity under the heavens. also known as turn, turn, turn by the birds. And a time to dance whether you are a Christian or not, it is in the Bible, right? there's a time to dance. It is important to do. And yet we have a culture that's not supporting that

[00:40:41] Zap: It's it doesn't make any sense. Yeah, it doesn't make, I do think that all cultures, if you like, went back in time. dance was just a normal part of life. Everyone danced. There was drums, there was music. that was the way that people got together. jazz, fast forward and, before there was TVs or movies or anything like that, how did people gather in communities?

[00:41:05] they would come and do dances together. How did they meet each other? so it might be social dance, there might be ritual, that's movement. maybe it's also, all of these dance forms that were created so people could secretly train, martial arts so they could,resist oppression. 

[00:41:22] I think of dance's activism too, and that's a whole, line of nerdiness that, I'll be willing to go to at any time. But dance. . There's just a lot of ways where dance can,make this transformation in society. And I think something about, if you looked at different indigenous cultures, even in the United States, dance is always there.

[00:41:43] They, it's not separate and not every indigenous culture, but, many of them. And so what is it about, certain societies or cultural norms or ideas of colonization that take, extract that to bleach it out of the, experience, the life experience? so I do love that there's always a time to dance and that it's,it's a way to make something more 

[00:42:09] and it's, I think more and more people are seeing that it's a way to heal. , whether that's the angle you wanna go or you just wanna have fun or you want to train so you can do the most incredible physical, expression of whatever as a dancer. all of those are valid and might be different, but can coexist.

[00:42:30] I think our traumas are stored in our bodies and dance is a great way to access those. As long as you're in a safer space and then have like intention around that, that can be really healing. can also be discombobulating if you aren't aware of that phenomenon. Yeah, I would love more dance to just be readily available on all the levels for all the peoples , like outside I'm, looking, there's a big storm, I don't know if you can hear it.

[00:42:58] And the trees are involved in this incredible performance. . I don't think they are performing, they're just experiencing it. But, movement and expression is just a vital part of existence. Can you 

[00:43:12] Bree: talk a little more about dance as a form of activism 

[00:43:16] Zap: that is something that's, I've been grappling with since I left a more formal conservative, which,was definitely, based on like kind of a whiteness culture.

[00:43:28] As in no ethnicity, no feeling, no, like it's all minimalist, like this post, modern concept of abstraction. And so I've spent a lot of time looking at that over the years and, like unpacking that and untangling myself from that. And there's usually, like in the research when I make a dance, like a big dance, I made the unearthing

[00:43:54] there was so much research into depletion of resources. It was all environmentally based, but it was also looking at how that was connected to social justice issues and extinction of cultures and people and all of that research was very political and the activism of it was very political, but there was still resistance of me to make something that was too on the nose.

[00:44:19] , like then it's propaganda or then it's not real art. And so I've been, I've definitely, feel more and more, strongly that there might be a more particular, view of mine that's expressed, but I also want, the dance to, allow room for people to have their own experience. So it's not too didactic.

[00:44:39] I'm not like telling you how to feel because I personally resist that as an audience member. But even just the way that I've approached trying to work in dance and, I'm not perfect. I don't always get it all the time, but that we're, taking care of each other. We're taking care of each other's bodies.

[00:44:56] Even though a lot of times because of time and money, our processes might be really consolidated. is there a way that we can cook together, eat together, or,how are we utilizing our resources just the way that we are together? Can there just be no divas can we co-create together and take time if possible to process things?

[00:45:18] And sometimes it's not possible and, that's failed. But the process, like I used to write this and I don't even how hashtags work. So I think it's really fun to make fun of myself, but it was like hashtag the, process is the product. . And something that I realized early on is I'll probably be doing this the rest of my life.

[00:45:41] And if I take this old school concept of hierarchy where there's, the master and then everybody else are peons and we're all scrambling on each other's heads to get to the top and you, have to injure your body or you're worthless and you're not a good dancer, , and don't eat and just, treat people mainly because they're a dance company and we wanna be a dance company.

[00:46:06] I just I felt I don't care how great the product is, if that's what it took to get to the product. The product is awesome. Yay. But if the eight months of rehearsal before that three night performance was utter hell, most of your life is gonna be in utter hell.

[00:46:25] And why would you do that? Can't you get a good product with a good process? So again, just the act of making work and striving to collaborate and learn from my mistakes and follow other people's leads and. utilize resources that, we've done a lot of in-kind donations or at hand productions, whatever is at hand we're gonna utilize, get a bunch of used clothes and cut 'em up and that becomes the costume.

[00:46:58] All of that, is activism. But there are just ways that, think of how dance in the nineties really started the trend for people to start accepting in the general culture that there are, fluid folks out there who have fluid gender roles or sexuality roles. And we would not be where we are today if there wasn't a movement of a dance world, voguing Madonna, you know, justthat gave people permission to.

[00:47:30] Switch their brains of that other is a danger to me. Suddenly that other was glamorous. Mm-hmm. and you wanted to be that other and boom. I'm not saying that's the only thing that has moved us to start accepting people other than ourselves, but it was a part of it. I ended up writing a whole research paper about this subject, , so I'll pause now, but just do think that dance,can be literal in the streets activism, but just taking care of your body and being with others in a space moving is also another form of activism and how you.

[00:48:09] Bree: You've identified that the activism can happen in the content as somewhat of a polemic for all intents and purposes, right? to raise awareness about an issue or it can be process, which is an example of Hey, here's something to embody, to take better care of ourselves and each other, and the world around us.

[00:48:32] That's sustainable, ? What you're talking about is really, it's really about, caring and sustainability in, in every way, which is so important. Plus a little bit of, drag saves The world is pretty awesome too. . 

[00:48:45] Zap: Yep. . I love it. Yeah. There's just so many amazing people out there who are.

[00:48:53] changing the world through their dance and questioning, everything. And so even the way that you might experience a performance or the performance itself is activism. but that doesn't always look like I'm wearing a t-shirt saying, mountain mountaintop removal sucks. You know? Although that's great too.

[00:49:14] there's just so many levels and ways that we can work towards evolving as a species and being a right relationship with the earth in each other. I think that gets to show up in so many different ways and dances a great form. 

[00:49:27] Bree: I think, you know, my husband is,is an environmental impact filmmaker.

[00:49:33] So we talk a lot about how do we affect change through art, right? Artivism. and what we do know is that people are moved most by two different things. Number one is an emotional connection to whatever it is. So dance is, it's engaging a visceral response, which usually shows up in us as an emotional response.

[00:50:02] That's how it gets translated. So that is such a great way of affecting change. Story also does that, right? Stories that are particularly emotional. And then the other thing is example. And so your process-oriented work is setting an example and learning by example. So I just love that I am such.

[00:50:24] An admirer of yours and a fan of your work and and I would really love for people to know how to get in touch with you. So how can people support your work, find your work, see what you do? Cuz you do a lot. 

[00:50:38] Zap: I do a lot and, I feel very lucky and fortunate. I'm always hustling because of the subjects we lightly touch touched on before with the supports.

[00:50:48] But I do actually have a Patreon that I started in the Pandemic and it is just Zap McConnell, . And, even if I had tripled the amount of supporters,that coming in helps me just feed myself so I can do a lot of this work. Cuz a lot of it is speculative, a lot of the way that I pour myself into all my different projects.

[00:51:09] I'm just doing it and no one's paying me. And,before I used to like work in all the different restaurants and the pandemic kind of changed that. Patreon, I have like little artists check-in videos that I do once a month, so that's a great way. I have a website, at mcconnell.com. I do have an Instagram site, that I'm not super witty or I don't go onto social media a lot.

[00:51:35] And then sometimes I do, and then I don't. I'm not, I'm very inconsistent. but I also am really lucky to be working on four projects right now simultaneously. And they're different partnerships. I am working on. A passion project, a documentary called How to Feed an Artist that is based, on the symbiotic relationship between the family owned restaurant and the artist that worked there.

[00:52:01] And I ensure every artist that's listening to this usually has had an experience working in a restaurant to support their arts. and I'm working with Mary Halan, we're looking at her restaurant in Winston and Cat Ryder we're co-directing together. And cat Ryder and I met actually making a music video for Lily Bechtel, which just got released and it's out there for free Desert Psalm, 

[00:52:26] And, Kat and I just clicked and we were able, she brought me to experimental film in Virginia, so we. our in post-production of a little dance video. So once that's released, I'll put that on my, website and Patreon and stuff like that.

[00:52:45] And we, because we're working on this documentary and a dance for film and finished the music video, we formed Kaza projects, which is really cute.

[00:52:56] That's what people call us when we're together and we're just looking to keep making, film together. yeah, Kaza .

[00:53:04] but I'm also working on, a partnership with Sean Richards outta Charlottesville called Party for Sadness. And we just started an Instagram site. definitely Sean is the one who is better at that than me. but she reached out to me in the heart of the pandemic and was just like, let's make something from scratch to deal with grief.

[00:53:24] And so we are always exploring what are some gentle kind of public disruptions that allow someone to wander into a ritual situation or, a little performance something, something. We're still figuring it out. We've given ourselves permission to just have an ongoing process of how do we process grief, how do we acknowledge it?

[00:53:48] don't you wanna give a little cupcake to your party for sadness? So we have an Instagram and we were lucky enough to get a residency to the Haage, down in Georgia and need a little help getting gas and food so soon. We're gonna be selling some little cute things to check that on our Instagram.

[00:54:09] And then I'm always in movement practice, even though we're not near each other with Julie Rothchild in the practice of making. And every so often we'll have labs. and then the Chicken Bank Collective, which is just, I love them so much. Six women. were split between the United States and Mexico.

[00:54:27] we are right now finally trying to get together and, the pandemic really shut all that down as it did for many people. But Teese too is the, artistic director of Dreaming Stone, arts and Ecology Center in Rutherfordton. North Carolina is writing your grant to try to bring Chicken Bank Collective together, around di del Las MUTOs.

[00:54:49] And, feel so honored to be on the board of that. And also, artivism, Virginia, that Kay Ferguson started a few years ago now. Josh has taken over and so that, anytime I can help them or do something where I blend my deep, like ecological warrior, like your husband with my arts,way to go.

[00:55:10] But we should all check out Artivism, Virginia just to see what we can do to. Stop the madness. and then you can always commission a small animal painting, on my website, that's my bread and butter helps me pay the bills so I can make dance performance.

[00:55:27] and soon, a fundraiser for the documentary will show itself in the spring. 

[00:55:33] Bree: Wonderful. Thank you so much. 

[00:55:35] Zap: Um, thank you . 

[00:55:36] Bree: Here are my key takeaways from this conversation with Zap McConnell. One dance doesn't just have to encompass the structure of a form like ballet or TikTok routines. I love Zaps expansive definition of dance as movement, and also an experimentation exploration, and a way to gain knowledge. How can you find dance in your kitchen or your garden, or waiting in line at the grocery?

[00:56:03] number two. So much of our training as artists, dancers, actors, storytellers, centers around the idea of learning the rules, or as Zap said, breaking you down to build you back up. I think of my own experience of that and also my own unwitting perpetuation of that problematic approach for those of us who are guides or educators, let's take a look at where our approach is potentially elitist and possibly even supremacists. How can we become more aware of the structures we are perpetuating? And how can we continue to dismantle them while also providing healthy scaffolding for exploration and growth? Number three, dance and art are integral to the sustainability of any culture. So look for ways to incorporate more dance into your life by observation, by exploration, or by offering support to artists like Zap McConnell. Because it is important to.

[00:57:05] A time to dance.