As Slow As Possible with Tuğba Avci

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When you just tap in and you're touching your center, and you just move with what is good and what inspires you and what you want to do, nothing but good comes from that.

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Always.

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Like, that's the only thing you can trust.

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Only.

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Totally agree.

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And I think this is why I think children are such an inspiration.

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Look at them.

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They're so careless.

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They don't care if something looks good.

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If something is a straight line, they just play.

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They just do whatever they want.

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They don't even come and ask you, do you like this? Will this be good? Will people like it? They don't care.

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They just do whatever they're so in the moment.

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That's why adults, I, I really strive to unlearn a lot of the things that I learned over the years, I think that comes to the point, you don't, you don't want to learn anymore, it's more unlearning rather than, you know, Learning something new onto all these old habits that you've acquired over the years that may not be so healthy, that are really influencing the work that you're doing.

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Help Me See is a podcast dedicated to the art of seeing.

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It's a space for the restless visionary with an insatiable desire to create the life and work you're meant for.

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My name is Bianca Lea Mora, and I'm a photographic artist, a mother, and a coach who's transformed my fear of loss into power, art, and philosophy.

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One of the scariest quotes I never want to say is, I wish I knew at the time, but I truly believe that we have the innate ability to bring our wise 2020 hindsight to our now.

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You can deeply experience your nostalgia now, while it's actually happening, with no regrets.

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All you have to do is see.

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In this show, we laugh, we cry, we get inspired, we overshare, we have life changing conversations around making meaning, self discovery, and shedding all the BS layers in order to reconnect to our own sacred vision.

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Seeing yourself is an essential key to living powerfully.

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You are the vessel, the lens that filters absolutely everything in your life.

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What are you filtering for? Whether it be conversations with fellow artists and visionaries, or my solo audio journal style introspective ramblings, each episode is meant to feel like an exhale, an unraveling of truth, a moment for you to be able to put your finger on something that you haven't been able to for far too long.

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Come exactly as you are.

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It's perfect.

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Honor your instincts.

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Let's uncover some of the most important things in our lives which all too often can slip out from our view.

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Let's commit to seeing and consciously creating what only you can in your one and only life.

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Let's dive in.

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Hello.

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Hello and welcome to another episode of help me see.

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Today I have a special treat for you.

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I reached out to someone named tuba.

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I found her on sub stack and when I got the welcome email, I subscribed to, or a sub stack and it said.

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Hi, I am tuba.

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Uh, Turkish, Greek artists living in Berlin as slow as possible as a newsletter, exploring the in-between spaces of our lives that we see, but often do not notice.

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I knew I had to reach.

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I was like, oh, well, I'm going to slide into these DMS because I have to talk to her more.

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Her writing is beautiful.

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I love, I felt instantly.

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So blessed by what she shared just in her sub stack.

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Like she shared, there was this one that I read where.

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She was taking a quick video of the bells and the sound of the church bells from where she was laying in bed.

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And it.

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It's just that level of nuance that.

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Specificity in her.

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Sensitivity to the world and what's so precious around her.

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And we have a really important conversation lately.

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I've really been circulating around this topic of.

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Um, living, working artist.

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mainly because I'm pulling all the roots out and completely, Exploring a new way, a new way of doing it.

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And then I really enjoy this conversation with tuba.

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She has.

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So much honesty and so much openness.

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And, uh, I really think you're going to enjoy our talk today.

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If you want to.

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Learn more about tuba, go into the notes of the podcast and you can find out more there.

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I hope you really enjoy this episode and I will catch you soon.

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I think it's so important because I think I feel that we have been, this is a tender point for me.

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I've in many ways, I feel like we are shown like the more dramatic version of like going after your dreams and doing your art and taking yourself seriously.

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And of course that requires.

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that requires you to, you know, do the quote unquote brave thing and leave your phone.

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I'm like, that's such horseshit.

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Like it really depends on your nervous system.

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And like being honest with yourself about like what feels good in your life and what is necessary and because different people have different, um, different thresholds for Uh, risk and safety and this and that, and it has nothing to do with, you know, whether I, I feel like when I first started my business that I started my business, like, as in, um, creating my work for, Um, for profit or whatever, which never has, and I don't care.

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Um, anyway, so, uh, that's an exaggeration, but whatever.

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I feel like when I first started, I got like a little woo about it, like, um, superstitious in a way of like, Oh, if I don't invest in this, because I know this is how I want it to look, this software, this platform, this, whatever.

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That's me doubting myself.

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That's me not taking myself seriously and I'm not going to like the way it look and that won't be good enough.

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And it was like actually really hilarious because it just wasn't smart.

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Like if from a tactical perspective and in some ways it probably added to the pressure and declined my ability to like create for a while because I felt so constricted by my finances that I had, you know, imposed on myself for Literally no reason.

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Yeah, I agree.

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And I think that that's a good point.

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What you said about the risk level.

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Because like, I mean, I've been doing on and off therapy for many years.

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It's something I always discuss with my therapist because there was a time I'm like, I'm done.

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I'm going to get out of corporate.

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I don't want this anymore.

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I'm going to go full time freelancing, do my creative work.

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But now I feel like actually, finally this year, I feel a bit more balanced and I feel good about my business job, like supporting my life and like the good things about it.

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Because I actually realized my.

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Risk aversion.

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I can't compare it to any other person.

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We were all individual people and we have Like very individual expectations of life, how risk averse we are, but also I'm now 40.

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I have built a certain life for myself where I go a lot of traveling.

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I go out to restaurants.

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So there is like the certain lifestyle that I have.

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I don't think if I give up that all together, I would also be happy.

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So I don't, that's, so, you know, you need to take into account if I go full time creative, I would have to cut down on certain things, at least for a couple of years, maybe even longer to support my practice and fully invest in it.

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But am I ready now to give up after that many years? So when I was like, you know, getting this good salary doing all that traveling, yeah, I can cut down a bit, which I, which is why I cut down to four days.

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Now I've been working for the past five years, four days a week.

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I'm even thinking maybe I should go on three days.

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I don't know, but that's still something up for discussion.

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So it's like all about balance.

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I don't think I would also be happy if I would have, if I would give up all those.

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Luxuries that I have in life.

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I call them luxuries, but like experiences that I'm having.

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Yeah, delicious.

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Like then that feeds your inspiration.

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That feed like, like going out to eat and having a yummy meal.

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Like those, that's literally like inspiration in your mouth.

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All of these things are so good.

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I feel like can be looked at as frivolous, um, I, I always felt like if one more fucking person tells me to stop buying a coffee at a coffee shop, I'm going to lose my mind because that is where the most work happens.

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Like that is where it feels so good.

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And I love those experiences so much.

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And also when you were saying that.

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One thousand percent.

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You can't even compare your risk tolerance to someone else's because we're so individual.

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It's also like we can't define ourselves by what our risk tolerance is in one season versus another season.

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I, I feel like I'm still trying.

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Even my, creator self, this resentment I would feel about, like, not being able to, to get in, into that, um, threshold of, how I would or what I felt like before kids and then after kids.

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It's like, oh my gosh.

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And this, um, rebellion I'd feel about, like, don't, of course I love my kids.

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I would die for my kids.

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Of course.

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Why do I even have to say that? And also that doesn't mean that my work is less important to me.

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It's just different and I need to find that balance, but also need to recognize that I'm, I don't have the same life like parameters right now.

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So yeah, exactly.

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We're already like, it's such important conversations and I'm just so grateful to have found you just For hello, welcome to help me see, uh, you guys, if you've been here before, you know how this goes.

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Um, so I had found tuba, right? Tuba on, on, uh, sub stack.

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I don't remember how, I don't know how I'm rarely on sub stack.

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I'm starting to become on it a little bit more.

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I have a friend that absolutely loves it.

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And I really don't even know how I came across her.

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But as soon as I did, I just felt so touched and I had to reach out to her.

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And I'm so grateful and humbled that you agreed to talk and come on the podcast.

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I can't wait to have this conversation.

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Um, Tuba was like, well, what do you want to talk about? I'm like, literally anything you want, because everything she writes on her sub stack just resonates so deeply.

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And we actually, before hitting record, have found that we're in a similar experience and season of like this push and pull of like making a living, living life, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, uh, and artistry.

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Um, so, I'll, that's all I'll say too, but I'll let you introduce yourself, um, because, you know, it's so multifaceted, you create work, you're a writer, you're, you know, working in corporate as well.

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Like whatever you want to share, um, please do so.

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And then we'll go from there.

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Yeah.

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Hey.

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So yeah, basically I'm living in Berlin, um, and in case you're wondering where the name comes from, I, it's a Turkish name, but it comes from Arabic.

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Uh, but my dad is Turkish and my mom is Greek.

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Um, and I always say 100 percent Mediterranean and some people go like, What? Turkish and Greek? I always say, Oh, I'm the child of peace.

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You know, like a lot of, uh, conflict always between neighbors.

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Um, I was born and raised in Germany and then with 21 I went, um, to England.

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It was meant to be like a eight months Erasmus exchange because, um, what the, the study that I wanted to do in Germany was in English and my English was terrible.

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So I went to England, but then I ended up staying 12 years.

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I met someone there and then we were dating and then I, I did university in England in Exeter in the Southwest of England, and then I lived another six years in London and now, yeah, I mean, I wasn't planning to move back to Germany.

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I always had a bit of a complicated relationship with this country being like my parents came as guest workers.

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Um, so being an immigrant daughter.

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I never felt like, you know, accepted here.

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Um, even though I have a German passport and I was born and raised here.

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So like when I left to England, I actually realized how many identity issues I had.

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Um, you know, I had a German passport, but all I wanted to do is to look German.

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So people wouldn't ask me, but where are you from? And why don't you have a German name? All these questions.

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And I think When I left Germany, I was no longer the immigrant daughter or like the guest worker daughter in England.

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I was a foreigner, like many other people who are living in London or like the UK.

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So that like really shifted and then suddenly People were like, wow, you're half Greek, half Turkish.

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And then I started to feel really proud of my roots and, you know, like my background and having all these cultures in me and being connected to so many cultures.

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So like always a bit of a difficult relationship.

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And that's why I was like, Oh, do I move back to Germany or not? Um, but then, um, first I went traveling in Asia.

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And then I found a good job here and I, Berlin is not really, I don't know if you've been Bianca, but like, it's very different than the rest of Germany.

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I mean, it's probably a bit like New York, you know, it's not very representative of like, or like London or Paris.

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It's not really representing, I feel like these cities are like so, So many cultures are coming together.

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It's not really representative of like maybe the rest of the country.

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Like when you go to Munich, it's still very German and very white.

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But I, I think after living in London, I wanted to live somewhere that is as international.

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So yeah, I've been living here now seven years, I think.

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And yeah, I work for Salesforce four days a week.

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Uh, I've been working for them now.

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I had my 60th anniversary and I've always actually worked in tech.

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My, one of my first jobs in London after university was, um, at Nokia.

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And then I worked for Microsoft.

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So always in tech, I don't know how I landed in tech because my interests were always like, even as a, Teenager I was doing my nan was very artistic.

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She was doing a lot of embroidery and I think she was a really big inspiration in my life when it comes to artistic work.

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So I was doing a lot of sewing.

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But I think it's also because being an immigrant daughter, if I would have taught my parents I want to study art.

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It wouldn't have been an option.

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Like I'm, my uncle was the first one who went to university.

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So I was the second one who went to university in our family.

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It was just like, you, you, you have to study something like business or economy or economics or something, you know, that was like in previous generation, like more tangible than like maybe studying art or.

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Um, something like that.

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So I think this is the reason why I ended up being in that industry, but I think everything, you know, shapes us.

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So I don't think it's.

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It's a bad thing.

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Um, but until I said a graduate from university, I was actually writing on blogger.

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com.

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I don't know if you know, like this really like that tells a lot about my age as well.

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And then when I started my first job, I somehow quit that blog.

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It was quite successful.

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I was writing about beauty and fashion.

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That was back then in my interest.

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So I was always involved in writing or some kind of artistic work.

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And then for a long time, I didn't do anything.

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And now I'm Fuck! I did it again.

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Yeah.

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I was curious when you said that you ended up staying in England for so long, I'm like, I was curious about, did you fall in love with England or was it life unfolding? But it sounds like it was kind of like, it was more like the, the fresh energy that maybe came from like, I don't know, you know, sometimes you don't feel that pressure or that constriction until you have the space until you leave.

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And then you're like, Oh my gosh, that was way more Tangled than I thought or I remember when I first when I moved to California.

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I was like, oh my gosh I live I grew up and was born in Jersey, New Jersey grew up and you know, New Jersey, New York grew up in Florida And then when I moved to California, I was like, oh, I don't I never realized I was always very unhappy with my environment I never liked it, but I didn't realize that is that something that happened for you when you moved to England? Or did you were you aware of it before you moved? I mean, I would say for the first two years, I was always planning to go back to Germany.

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This was the first time I lived, like, away from my parents.

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And I have a great relationship with my parents, so I cried a lot.

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I was 21, but like, I was like, Oh my God, I miss my family.

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I don't want to be close to my family.

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But then I fell in love with someone and we started dating and then I made friends and then I started enjoying it.

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And then eventually my dad actually said, Hey, why don't you just study in the UK? I will, you know, you can continue having a part time job and I will support you financially a bit because it is quite expensive in Germany, studying is free.

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So, um, yeah.

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And then after two years, I think, and then I was like four years old.

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in this relationship.

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I was like, you know what, I'm going to stay here.

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And then I started liking it.

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And now thinking back, best decision of my life to go to the UK.

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I really like, it still feels very home.

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I, yeah, I have, whenever I'm there, there is so much.

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I have still this certain connection.

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I think I sometimes feel like I have more of a connection with the UK than sometimes even with Germany.

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With Germany, it's still a bit complicated.

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It's not as straightforward, like emotionally, but with the UK, it's a bit different, especially London.

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And when I was living in London, I thought I would never leave.

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And I don't know how, what happened.

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And I left and I mean, Yeah, so it took some time though.

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Yeah, I think that, I hear what you're saying about that because I feel like that.

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I feel like when I first, when we went to move, my partner and I went to move to San Francisco for the first time, it was the weirdest thing because I was someone who, same as you, um, Uh, for better and worse than my crazy New York Italian family.

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Like we are very close and also bite each other's heads off, but like very close.

219
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So when I went to three hours away for college in.

220
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Florida, so only three hours away from my parents, full body hives, like my dad was telling me he wasn't telling you could do it.

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He was like, Don't worry, we can you can pull out we can come home.

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I was like, the first week of orientation and oatmeal baths while everyone was getting to know.

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So like, I definitely relate to that.

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But I do remember, um, And then I moved to New York and I was like crying every day of my life.

225
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I was so overwhelmed with it and I did not, it was not a fit for me at the time.

226
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And then when I moved to California, I remember landing and I felt like I was coming home and I'm like, this is so weird.

227
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I've never even been here.

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Like I had never visited growing up.

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I just felt so home.

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And, um, I do think a lot of that has to do with like, This identity conversation, like the self identity, this like cleansing of like as much as we absolutely love and adore our families and like what the ties that come with nostalgia and home and what that flavor is.

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It's also like when we're given the space.

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To choose and start without all of these like tangled webs around us and like, even like the innocent questions of like, Oh, you know, you don't look like you're from here born and raised, but like, you gotta have this conversation.

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It's just, you know, that energy that.

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So I feel like that too, as I'm, you know, back here, I'm creating work, it's kind of, it feels more difficult.

235
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I think that's why I like being in my basement.

236
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And it's weird.

237
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I don't know.

238
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I like, I need to go into a void.

239
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I need to feel like there's nothing around me and it's black and whatever I'm focusing on is this right in front of me.

240
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Um, so I'm curious.

241
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Just how you relate to that, what you feel about that.

242
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And you said you, you didn't create work for a while.

243
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There was like, um, a gap or whatever you said.

244
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Um, and just your relationship to the creation of work and how, you know, you flow from ceramics and sculpture to writing and this and that, and what was that journey like? Yeah, I think like it's, this is like before we started actually recording what has been top of mind.

245
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Like last year, it was really stressful trying to juggle everything.

246
00:21:34,240.3277982 --> 00:21:43,920.3277982
And I think, like, deep down I felt a certain, um, pressure to, like, when I started writing my substag.

247
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It felt so good in that, to be in that creative space.

248
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But I think I was also pushing myself really hard for, to make up for the time that I lost.

249
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the last couple of years when I took a bit of a break.

250
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Um, and I can't even Wait, what was that break? Was it purposeful break or did it just happen? I'm so curious.

251
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It just happened.

252
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Yeah, it just happened.

253
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That's the thing.

254
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It just happened.

255
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I call it break now because I don't know how else to call it.

256
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I just got caught up, like, working in a corporate and of course like I was doing other things and then I went through this breakup with my ex after nine years moved to another country and then still continuing and then like it was like still back of my mind that I was once into all this creative work but then I don't know what happened like you know why I stopped Doing it and I got, I guess life just happened and I think then when I, um, last year I was, I try and go escape the winter in Germany because I can work remotely.

257
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So I was in Brazil last year and then when I came back, like before I went to Brazil, I did a meditation retreat and it was like, really weird retreat.

258
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So I, I've been doing this retreats for a couple of years, but like, I, I kept having these visual flashbacks in the retreat and I'm not usually a very visual person, but like very like thought oriented.

259
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I think that's why I also write a lot of writers have a lot of thoughts, but then suddenly during these, during the seven day retreat, I kept having visuals and then I came out of it and I started doing like simple sketches and everything.

260
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And.

261
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After the retreat, I read Elizabeth Gilbert's Big Magic book.

262
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I don't know if you read it.

263
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I don't know.

264
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Something happened.

265
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Something opened up.

266
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And then when I came back from Brazil, I found a little atelier, like a studio space for myself.

267
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Within one month and everything went from there.

268
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Like, and then in June, I did like a course at art university, like a summer course for one week, I met other artists and now we have artists collective.

269
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I started doing ceramics in August, Substack I started in August.

270
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But then I was like going like full on speed plus, you know, social life plus my corporate job.

271
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And like in December, January, I felt pretty burned out, like really, really burned out.

272
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And I think now reflecting on it, it was also because I felt like I needed to do it now, because there was a time limit and I lost so much time already.

273
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Like the other day when I thought about it, I cried.

274
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Even about it, when I realized, you know, when I reflected, I think this was what was pushing me to the, my limit last year because I felt like, Oh, I need to make up for it.

275
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Which is of course, like, I don't have to make up for anything.

276
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I can make art until I'm a hundred.

277
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If I live until a hundred, there is no time that, and just because I stopped once doesn't mean like eventually I came back to it again.

278
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And I think, you know, I can't also say, Oh, I regret it because life just happened and this is what was important or what was top of mind for me.

279
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And that's why I moved away from art, but I came back again.

280
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So yeah.

281
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And again, that space is so important.

282
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And it's probably like this well that you're pulling from even now that you'll see whenever something gets made.

283
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Um, I, I think about when you say that, I think about my experience with, um, when I was in corporate full time for years for, um, like ever since college and, um, until I got laid off and I would still do my work on the side, quote unquote, on the side and, but very less like, because I, You underestimate how much of your, you overestimate how much energy you'll have for it because when you're, you know, with people all day, you're like, tonight I'm going to edit those photos or tonight I'm going to do this.

284
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It just doesn't happen.

285
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And then copy, paste, copy, paste, six years goes by.

286
00:26:04,700.3277982 --> 00:26:14,90.3277982
I very much felt that same, um, feeling of, I think when I started and decided I'm not going back to full time work, which was never a thought in my brain.

287
00:26:14,90.3277982 --> 00:26:16,810.3272982
I just, it was like a connection that never got made.

288
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Like it wasn't even an option.

289
00:26:18,250.3277982 --> 00:26:24,490.3267982
And then I was like, wait, I'm deciding not to, because now it feels like a, I don't know, it feels personal.

290
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I just got very stubborn and pigheaded about it, um, in a good way though, I'd say.

291
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But I also feel like I.

292
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With felt so much weight of like this, I have to make the most of my time and I've always felt like that since I was like 12 a time on earth, like existential, I need to make the most of my time.

293
00:26:46,105.3277982 --> 00:26:59,875.3277982
And how do I, how do I, so now when it comes to what I create and like the courses or the programs or the conversations I'm having, it feels like everything I choose to do needs to fill every nook and cranny of my soul.

294
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Otherwise I'm not doing it.

295
00:27:01,735.3277982 --> 00:27:07,575.3277982
But that's also been very, um, debilitating, I'd say.

296
00:27:08,75.3277982 --> 00:27:16,575.3277982
Like when I, before we hit record, I was saying how like this dive into like consciousness and mindfulness and art and making, living a life.

297
00:27:16,595.3277982 --> 00:27:23,585.3277982
And also, you know, oftentimes, like, unless you have a beautiful collective of like artists around you, you.

298
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we artists tend to be the one in the family.

299
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We tend, we usually tend to be the, the one that has this, you know, affinity towards creating like this.

300
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And we're feel like we're speaking in different language than the people we're closest to.

301
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So it also, there's this intensity around it.

302
00:27:42,875.3267982 --> 00:27:47,15.3267982
Um, I know you said your Nana, did you say was creating? Yeah.

303
00:27:47,295.3267982 --> 00:27:47,505.3267982
Yeah.

304
00:27:47,505.3267982 --> 00:27:47,705.3267982
Yeah.

305
00:27:49,5.3267982 --> 00:27:54,85.3277982
Like I had like a a grandpa that was a musician that traveled the world, but also he died when I was little.

306
00:27:54,85.3277982 --> 00:28:05,685.3267982
So it's like, you know, those ties that you could tell were like strong, but also you didn't have the time to like, go, you know, deep and really investigate them when you were of that mindset.

307
00:28:05,685.3277982 --> 00:28:09,955.3267982
But it's like, you can't say, Oh, I wish I would have had those conversations when I was a child.

308
00:28:09,955.3277982 --> 00:28:17,195.3277982
So you're thinking, I wish I would have created them, but like, no, I was living life and doing the best I could and let just, you know, existing.

309
00:28:17,585.3277982 --> 00:28:26,270.3277982
So, This idea of making up for lost time, this idea of like, feeling like, Oh, drinking from a fire hose.

310
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There's so much I want to do.

311
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There's so much I want to create.

312
00:28:28,520.3277982 --> 00:28:29,390.3277982
And it's beautiful.

313
00:28:29,390.3277982 --> 00:28:34,270.3277982
And also too much of anything is no good.

314
00:28:34,550.3277982 --> 00:29:01,635.3277982
So how, how do you temper that? Because I think that my quote, unquote, empowered choice to stop full time work And focus on my business turned into something that was like way too fire hosy for me because I wasn't able to temper that I wasn't able to have a healthy relationship with it because it was always in my mind and in so in that it created a big fog.

315
00:29:02,190.3277982 --> 00:29:12,230.3272982
And I hear you seeking out these meditation retreats and I'm like drawing these threads between like, Oh my gosh, these experiences, while they're different, they're also very much linked and very much woven together.

316
00:29:12,230.3272982 --> 00:29:31,770.3277982
So, um, yeah, what made you seek out those meditation retreats? Like, uh, did you have reflections about your, that gap in the retreat and, you know, whatever, whatever you want to comment on? Yeah, I mean, like, I think, like, just to your first question, it's, I would say it's still a work in progress.

317
00:29:31,800.3277982 --> 00:29:36,480.3267982
I've, I'm definitely doing better the past couple of months on trying to juggle.

318
00:29:36,770.3277982 --> 00:29:44,50.3267982
I realize I can't, when you take on something new into your life, that means you have to cut in some areas.

319
00:29:44,50.3267982 --> 00:29:50,85.3277982
You can't continue, you know, Like your social life or something else.

320
00:29:50,85.3277982 --> 00:29:54,175.3277982
I don't know when you're doing sports or like other things that you were doing in your life.

321
00:29:54,175.3277982 --> 00:29:56,275.3277982
So what I'm trying to do is like really.

322
00:29:56,760.3277982 --> 00:30:06,120.3272982
I don't know, maybe some friends I meet now once a month instead of like, you know, every week, um, I'm really trying to juggle my social life as well.

323
00:30:06,120.3272982 --> 00:30:12,110.3267982
Because like, sometimes now I say to friends, Hey, listen, we can meet, but I have only time next week.

324
00:30:12,970.3277982 --> 00:30:16,540.3277982
I really want to get into the ceramic studio because I haven't done any work.

325
00:30:16,950.3277982 --> 00:30:24,480.3277982
So I think I now tell also people, Hey, sorry, I would love to meet you, but we will have to do it in two weeks because I'm already fully packed.

326
00:30:24,490.3277982 --> 00:30:31,175.3277982
So I've gotten also better instead of just accepting everything, feeling bad that I, you know, Want to cancel on people.

327
00:30:31,665.3277982 --> 00:30:33,75.3277982
I'm trying to juggle that.

328
00:30:33,95.3277982 --> 00:30:44,905.3277982
But then also like the art, like on my sub stack, I only try and publish like every two weeks, a post I could probably do every week, but it's too stressful.

329
00:30:45,270.3277982 --> 00:30:48,300.3277982
Like, you know, I also want to focus on my ceramic work.

330
00:30:48,690.3277982 --> 00:30:54,580.3277982
Like now I've given up my little atelier space, studio space, because I want to focus more on ceramic.

331
00:30:54,830.3277982 --> 00:31:00,660.3277982
So I'm like making little, little, little changes now to balance out everything and it's not always working.

332
00:31:00,710.3277982 --> 00:31:13,280.3277982
I still have weeks where I'm like full on and I'm like, Oh my God, I plan too much again, but I think this is where the meditation comes in or like the mindfulness work that I've been doing over the years, all these retreats.

333
00:31:13,945.3277982 --> 00:31:19,485.3277982
It really sharpens my awareness, like to be aware that I'm okay.

334
00:31:19,485.3277982 --> 00:31:20,605.3277982
This was not a good week.

335
00:31:20,615.3277982 --> 00:31:21,755.3277982
I planned way too much.

336
00:31:21,765.3277982 --> 00:31:32,415.3267982
So next week I need to do better and like, you know, maybe have at least two or three evenings where I just rest and don't do anything because I am also like, I call myself a social introvert.

337
00:31:32,415.3277982 --> 00:31:33,655.3267982
I love being alone.

338
00:31:33,655.3267982 --> 00:31:42,515.3277982
So I need to have alone time also to make sense of the world and also to process my experiences so they can, they can feed into my art.

339
00:31:42,855.3277982 --> 00:31:44,165.3277982
And I think this is where.

340
00:31:45,400.3277982 --> 00:31:47,610.3277982
The mindfulness work of these retreats.

341
00:31:47,670.3277982 --> 00:31:51,260.3277982
I mean, I always say like, you know, a holiday is great.

342
00:31:52,180.3277982 --> 00:32:17,430.3277982
Like I love going on holidays all these new experiences, but they're also Not really a holiday for our minds Because you're like still feeding a lot of new input and like you still need to process these things and sometimes you know When when you come back from a holiday and you're like, oh my god, I need a holiday for my holiday A lot of people have this so these retreats.

343
00:32:17,460.3277982 --> 00:32:28,75.3277982
I really try and prioritize like at least once a year Sometimes even twice a year You Like now I have one planned in August, uh, which will be seven days.

344
00:32:28,85.3277982 --> 00:32:36,485.3277982
So it's like at a Buddhist center and somewhere in Germany, and it's fully like, so it's a silent retreat.

345
00:32:36,725.3277982 --> 00:32:38,315.3267982
We have a schedule every day.

346
00:32:38,665.3267982 --> 00:32:47,875.3277982
You do mindful movement, like usually you do Tai Chi or Qigong, depends in the morning, like for 15 minutes, and then you have different meditations.

347
00:32:48,455.3277982 --> 00:32:51,785.3277982
Uh, sessions like seated meditation, walking meditation.

348
00:32:52,195.3277982 --> 00:32:55,855.3277982
But these retreats, they're like a reset for me.

349
00:32:55,975.3277982 --> 00:33:03,85.3277982
It's like a reset from everything from life, from my creative work, because I also don't read.

350
00:33:03,955.3277982 --> 00:33:08,815.3277982
I do writing, but I'm very like also not full every break with writing.

351
00:33:08,815.3277982 --> 00:33:10,825.3277982
Like if I have a break.

352
00:33:11,450.3277982 --> 00:33:16,440.3277982
I don't know, like if I have like 20 minutes after dinner, I make sure like to rest in those 20 minutes.

353
00:33:17,240.3277982 --> 00:33:20,540.3277982
If the lunch break is a bit longer, I say, okay, I'm going to do my journaling now.

354
00:33:20,680.3277982 --> 00:33:42,190.3277982
So I'm very like selective what I do because you're meant to really focus anyway on your thoughts and your experiences, all your emotions and not like trying to, okay, I need to read this book, not just try and fill your, Um, you know, uh, time and very often in the breaks, I just like lay on my bed and stare like in the sky.

355
00:33:42,190.3277982 --> 00:33:46,650.3277982
Like I look at the clouds or whatever from the, from, from my, from my room.

356
00:33:46,680.3267982 --> 00:33:56,90.3277982
When do you ever do that, that you just chill on the sofa and just watch the sky? Actually, truly, I'm so intrigued and I cannot even fathom what you're talking about.

357
00:33:56,310.3277982 --> 00:33:58,390.3277982
Like, I can't even.

358
00:33:59,165.3277982 --> 00:34:22,250.3277982
It's making me panic to think about just laying there staring at the clock, which is obviously very telling, but yeah, so when you're saying in your breaks, do you mean, so these, I've never been to one and now I definitely want to go to one, even though I'm horrified, is it that the meditations are that long, like, just like, Throughout the day or what? Yeah.

359
00:34:22,250.3277982 --> 00:34:26,660.3277982
I mean, like usually the, like, like I can give you a quick, like example of a schedule.

360
00:34:26,700.3277982 --> 00:34:32,405.3277982
So you wake up like, let's say at six 30 and then the first, Movement.

361
00:34:32,435.3277982 --> 00:34:34,725.3277982
It's like mindful, mindful movement.

362
00:34:34,905.3277982 --> 00:34:38,55.3277982
So where we do like a gong or Tai Chi, it's like 20 minutes.

363
00:34:38,55.3277982 --> 00:34:42,315.3277982
Basically it's a bit like stretching and just becoming aware of your body.

364
00:34:42,345.3277982 --> 00:34:45,485.3267982
And then you sit down and meditate for half an hour, 45 minutes.

365
00:34:45,485.3277982 --> 00:34:46,765.3277982
It's the max that you meditate.

366
00:34:47,335.3277982 --> 00:34:51,25.3277982
Then you have breakfast and then you do mindful working.

367
00:34:51,75.3277982 --> 00:35:08,375.3277982
So basically we help in the house, like cutting vegetables for lunch, or you do some cleaning because like in the end, They're teaching you also not to think of meditation or being mindful as something when you sit on the meditation chair or like meditation pillow.

368
00:35:08,925.3267982 --> 00:35:24,325.3277982
It's like about how can I take these learnings and incorporate it in my day to day? How can I incorporate it in when I'm with my children? How can I be mindful with my family? Or how can I be more mindful or aware when I'm doing my work? All these kinds of things.

369
00:35:24,345.3277982 --> 00:35:26,795.3277982
So the, the schedule is like quite flexible.

370
00:35:26,805.3277982 --> 00:35:29,965.3277982
And then sometimes you have walking meditation, so you can do them outside.

371
00:35:29,985.3277982 --> 00:35:35,855.3267982
It's like in a beautiful, um, it's actually, uh, active volcano in Germany.

372
00:35:35,855.3277982 --> 00:35:45,375.3277982
It's like a natural reserve where this Buddhist center it's like, so there was a lot of nature and then you go and do like very slow walking where you feel your feet.

373
00:35:45,985.3277982 --> 00:35:51,655.3277982
But then of course you have breaks, like the lunch break, for instance, is like one to half hour, a half an hour lunch.

374
00:35:51,655.3277982 --> 00:35:53,375.3277982
And then you have like a whole one hour.

375
00:35:53,775.3277982 --> 00:36:05,5.3287982
And imagine like, you don't have your phone, you can't read, you don't talk to people, what do you do? You just look, I don't know, you can sit in the summer, like I'm going to do it in August now, so it's going to be nice.

376
00:36:05,75.3277982 --> 00:36:06,135.3277982
I can sit outside.

377
00:36:06,765.3277982 --> 00:36:25,835.3277982
You can look at the trees, how they're moving, or Yeah, and like boredom kicks in and you think, fuck, I just want like, you know, I want to do something because you're coming from like super busy city life to like suddenly everything is removed from your life and you're like, Oh, what do I do now? I'm so bored.

378
00:36:25,865.3277982 --> 00:36:36,230.3277982
But I think that moment when you're bored, And this resistance kicks in and you like, usually you would grab for your phone or you would do something else.

379
00:36:36,250.3277982 --> 00:36:37,470.3277982
You would talk to someone.

380
00:36:37,820.3277982 --> 00:36:46,740.3267982
This is like the point where magic actually happens when you are bored, because then your brain really, or your mind goes really deeper.

381
00:36:47,400.3267982 --> 00:36:49,700.3277982
And usually I have the best ideas.

382
00:36:50,30.3277982 --> 00:36:58,730.3272982
Like in these moments when I'm like super bored and I'm like, what do I do with myself? And because like something opens up, I can't even explain it.

383
00:36:58,730.3272982 --> 00:37:06,310.3267982
I usually only experience these feelings like when I'm at a retreat because we also live in a society where we are over consuming.

384
00:37:06,340.3267982 --> 00:37:07,500.3277982
We're bombarded with.

385
00:37:07,880.3277982 --> 00:37:14,210.3277982
Things I don't think boredom is really has become a luxury, especially for us, like living in big cities.

386
00:37:14,710.3277982 --> 00:37:21,290.3277982
So, but yeah, that was not the moment, even though tough, but, uh, critical for our creativity, I think.

387
00:37:21,290.3277982 --> 00:37:24,310.3277982
I'm like squirming, squirming in my seat.

388
00:37:24,310.3277982 --> 00:37:32,960.3277982
And I, with a knowing though, with a knowing, like it's, it just sounds like truth, like, of course, of course, this boredom is so precious.

389
00:37:32,960.3277982 --> 00:37:34,180.3272982
And exactly.

390
00:37:34,180.3272982 --> 00:37:40,720.3277982
It's a luxury in this, I just, the other day I was looking at, because I've come to the point where I feel like.

391
00:37:42,15.3277982 --> 00:37:50,115.3267982
I, I put these, you know, the focus locks on your phone where it's like, you know, and then I just do the thing to ignore it.

392
00:37:50,135.3277982 --> 00:37:52,335.3277982
I'm like, okay, I've obviously like, I'm a child.

393
00:37:52,335.3277982 --> 00:37:54,355.3277982
I'm like, I can't, I deal with it.

394
00:37:55,305.3277982 --> 00:37:57,85.3277982
I can't have the privilege.

395
00:37:57,85.3277982 --> 00:38:05,480.3277982
So I'm like looking up, there's like these phones that are only, um, that only do like, you know, Phone calls, light.

396
00:38:05,960.3277982 --> 00:38:06,80.3277982
Yes.

397
00:38:09,90.3277982 --> 00:38:11,70.3277982
Yesterday I sent the link to my partner yesterday.

398
00:38:11,70.3277982 --> 00:38:12,830.3277982
Cause he's like, I'm going to get a flip phone.

399
00:38:12,830.3277982 --> 00:38:14,310.3277982
I feel like a robot.

400
00:38:14,320.3277982 --> 00:38:15,100.3267982
I'm like, I know.

401
00:38:15,340.3267982 --> 00:38:20,150.3267982
And so I was doing some research and just yesterday I found the light phone and it's like on pre order or something.

402
00:38:20,150.3267982 --> 00:38:21,810.3267982
And I'm like, I think I want to get that phone.

403
00:38:22,360.3277982 --> 00:38:32,710.3277982
Um, anyway, but I actually have this app, which I would highly recommend to you because like, even though I'm talking all these things and everything, but I'm also just human, like, you know.

404
00:38:33,170.3277982 --> 00:38:34,430.3277982
One month after the treat.

405
00:38:34,430.3277982 --> 00:38:37,100.3277982
I'm already trying, like going back into my old habits.

406
00:38:37,280.3277982 --> 00:38:39,95.3277982
It's called Al Al.

407
00:38:39,315.3277982 --> 00:38:39,735.3277982
Mm-Hmm.

408
00:38:39,820.3277982 --> 00:38:40,700.3277982
Mm-Hmm.

409
00:38:40,970.3277982 --> 00:38:41,60.3277982
Yeah.

410
00:38:41,60.3277982 --> 00:38:41,123.3277982
I've heard of it.

411
00:38:41,128.3277982 --> 00:38:42,860.3277982
I thought about it, but this is what I use.

412
00:38:42,860.3277982 --> 00:38:47,90.3277982
For instance, I realized I was spending also too much time, like on Instagram.

413
00:38:47,120.3277982 --> 00:38:47,480.3277982
Yeah.

414
00:38:47,485.3277982 --> 00:38:50,150.3277982
So I, and like, you can't unlock it.

415
00:38:50,155.3277982 --> 00:38:52,970.3277982
I think you need to email them to get a code or something like that.

416
00:38:53,330.3277982 --> 00:38:53,780.3277982
Oh, I have.

417
00:38:53,780.3277982 --> 00:38:58,310.3277982
So it's like, it's not like these other apps, like this focus apps where you just ignore it.

418
00:38:58,460.3277982 --> 00:38:59,840.3277982
You have to pay for it.

419
00:38:59,870.3277982 --> 00:39:03,490.3277982
But like I, I've come to accept.

420
00:39:05,140.3277982 --> 00:39:10,610.3277982
It's just very human being to crave this dopamine to grab your phone.

421
00:39:11,100.3277982 --> 00:39:16,850.3277982
So if there is an app that helps me or supports me and blocks this, I'm totally cool with that too.

422
00:39:16,870.3267982 --> 00:39:27,320.3277982
Like, you know, I don't always question or like, why can I not just discipline myself? It's very difficult to be disciplined in this world that we're living in when we're so much stimulation.

423
00:39:27,630.3277982 --> 00:39:28,610.3277982
I love that.

424
00:39:28,710.3277982 --> 00:39:32,955.3277982
Can we take the shame out of it? Like, I feel it's such a shameful thing.

425
00:39:32,985.3277982 --> 00:39:35,135.3277982
I feel ashamed of myself.

426
00:39:35,335.3277982 --> 00:39:39,615.3277982
Like, I'm like, oh my god, but it's built for that.

427
00:39:39,935.3277982 --> 00:39:48,45.3277982
Like, like slot machines, like, like gambling, like it is built to play on what they know of our dopamine experience.

428
00:39:48,345.3277982 --> 00:39:52,125.3267982
So like, okay, like, I love what you just said.

429
00:39:52,125.3277982 --> 00:39:57,920.2277982
Like, I just feel like it's so underrated to be like, I don't think too much about like, why can't I? It's like, of course I can't.

430
00:39:58,160.3277982 --> 00:40:00,940.3277982
Of course, it gets built for that.

431
00:40:01,300.3277982 --> 00:40:06,670.3267982
So it's like, okay, I'm going to invest in whatever, how much it is to, you know, have this app.

432
00:40:06,670.3277982 --> 00:40:07,810.3272982
And it like, kind of sounds silly.

433
00:40:07,810.3272982 --> 00:40:08,850.3272982
It's like, we'll just don't do it.

434
00:40:08,850.3272982 --> 00:40:10,390.3277982
It's like, no, I can't.

435
00:40:11,650.3277982 --> 00:40:11,940.3277982
Okay.

436
00:40:11,940.4277982 --> 00:40:16,550.3277982
So can we laugh and be light about it? And then just take the steps that we need, like you're doing.

437
00:40:17,470.3267982 --> 00:40:20,670.3277982
And I can tell you something, I've used this app for a couple of months.

438
00:40:21,490.3277982 --> 00:40:26,450.3277982
And then, um, I think I unlocked it again because I'm like, you know what? I'm good.

439
00:40:26,520.3277982 --> 00:40:27,370.3277982
And I was good.

440
00:40:27,420.3277982 --> 00:40:28,980.3277982
Actually, it changed something.

441
00:40:29,270.3277982 --> 00:40:32,960.3277982
It changed because like not logging onto Instagram that often.

442
00:40:32,990.3277982 --> 00:40:34,340.3277982
So I was logging on once a week.

443
00:40:34,510.3267982 --> 00:40:36,180.3277982
It really changed my habits.

444
00:40:36,720.3277982 --> 00:40:47,880.3267982
So like just having the support at the beginning, you can change your habits, but at the beginning, it requires a lot of willpower because like you say, these apps, our phones are addictive.

445
00:40:47,920.3277982 --> 00:40:57,250.3277982
And like, they really like, I don't even know, like we shouldn't be blaming everything on ourselves that we don't have self discipline and we're adults.

446
00:40:57,250.3277982 --> 00:41:08,15.3277982
And why do we act like children? Why don't we have willpower? They are like, like someone on StepStack a couple of months ago, he called it like a Um, like he shared an article that they're like slot machines.

447
00:41:08,15.3277982 --> 00:41:13,545.3277982
Like you say, you know, they're quite addictive and this is how the technology is made and I work in tech too.

448
00:41:13,545.3277982 --> 00:41:29,275.3277982
So I know like, you know, all these kinds of things, like when, you know, when I was working in Microsoft, I was working for phones, you know, you want people to spend as much time as possible on, on the phone and that people use it and that they buy a new phone again, so I think.

449
00:41:29,775.3277982 --> 00:41:32,765.3277982
You need to be also aware of it and not shame yourself.

450
00:41:32,935.3277982 --> 00:41:34,765.3277982
And if there is any help, you should get it.

451
00:41:34,805.3277982 --> 00:41:35,715.3277982
Like there was nothing.

452
00:41:35,995.3277982 --> 00:41:45,365.3267982
I think it's even my friends who are really, really good, who have quite a lot of willpower complain about similar things.

453
00:41:45,385.3267982 --> 00:41:48,185.3267982
I think it's just a general issue with everyone.

454
00:41:49,165.3277982 --> 00:41:49,665.3267982
Oh yeah.

455
00:41:49,855.3267982 --> 00:41:53,695.3277982
And then, then I think about as you're speaking, I'm like, yeah, and also.

456
00:41:54,50.3277982 --> 00:42:00,530.3277982
Part of the reason, reason why I'm so pulled to it is because of the serendipitous things that happen when I'm on it.

457
00:42:00,550.3277982 --> 00:42:17,290.3277982
Like, I would never be having this conversation with you unless I took a trip or you took a trip and we, and even so, we would, like, what are the odds of, you know, so it opens up such other worlds and universes for, I mean, some of my best friends in my life, I have felt.

458
00:42:17,480.3277982 --> 00:42:22,60.3277982
A found through something that happened when I was, I don't even know how it happened and I was on my phone.

459
00:42:22,90.3277982 --> 00:42:31,230.3277982
So it's like, there is such a magical, like positives for it, but with everything else, like just finding this healthy balance, whatever way that looks like for you, of course.

460
00:42:31,240.3277982 --> 00:42:40,170.3277982
So now my question is, you said for a while you were using Opal and then you, when you, um, eased up on whatever the plan was, whatever, and then you found that it actually changed your behavior.

461
00:42:40,380.3277982 --> 00:42:53,880.3267982
What was the relation to your art making creation during that time? I know that one of your substacks you highlighted, um, that oftentimes there's like, uh, when you're feeling whatever way about it, there's too much inflow.

462
00:42:53,880.3277982 --> 00:42:56,430.3267982
Not, it's not the outflow of your production.

463
00:42:56,760.3277982 --> 00:43:01,280.3267982
Um, and I totally know that I feel that in my bones.

464
00:43:01,370.3267982 --> 00:43:38,900.3277982
So what was happening for you in your creation when you were taking time away from the phone? What happened when you came back from that retreat? Like, what did you produce? Like, what did you create when, when you were able to get back to your tools or whatever? I mean, I think I realized like, I, I have anxiety, like mild anxiety, like most days, but like when I started taking more breaks, especially from Instagram, I realized like how much more anxious it was making me, how much I was comparing myself to other artists, like our lives, other things.

465
00:43:38,920.3277982 --> 00:43:40,410.3277982
And when you.

466
00:43:41,185.3277982 --> 00:43:42,45.3277982
Stop that.

467
00:43:42,55.3277982 --> 00:43:44,65.3277982
This voice also becomes quieter.

468
00:43:44,195.3277982 --> 00:43:45,595.3277982
Your mind becomes quieter.

469
00:43:45,925.3277982 --> 00:43:56,605.3277982
Like I was, I don't know, writing a post, but I wasn't thinking, or like I was making a ceramic piece, but I wasn't thinking, Oh, this thing that I saw yesterday, this artist, she's way better than me.

470
00:43:56,845.3277982 --> 00:43:58,745.3272982
So this voice became really quiet.

471
00:43:58,745.3272982 --> 00:44:02,805.3267982
And my anxiety went into its normal state of like being mild.

472
00:44:03,275.3277982 --> 00:44:08,785.3277982
I think especially the comparison one, it's, it's a huge one that impacts.

473
00:44:09,0.3277982 --> 00:44:14,690.3277982
When you spend a lot of time on, um, as an artist on social media, first of all, you're comparing yourself.

474
00:44:15,20.3277982 --> 00:44:18,980.3277982
And I, there was a time I felt also very overwhelmed with all that inspiration.

475
00:44:18,980.4277982 --> 00:44:23,440.3277982
So I was only collecting inspiration, but I wasn't creating anything.

476
00:44:24,340.3277982 --> 00:44:27,860.3267982
And that, yeah, I think just removing that part.

477
00:44:29,260.3277982 --> 00:44:30,970.3277982
Has made a huge impact.

478
00:44:30,970.3277982 --> 00:44:44,450.3267982
So now when I go to the ceramic studio, I don't have like these 10 ceramic pieces that I saw yesterday on Instagram in my head, I don't have anything like I have, sometimes maybe I see something, I take inspiration pictures, whatever.

479
00:44:44,930.3277982 --> 00:44:51,450.3277982
But like I go in there and go in with my own ideas and not too much of what other people are doing.

480
00:44:51,750.3277982 --> 00:44:55,670.3277982
And I think that has been the biggest impact, but then also more time.

481
00:44:56,170.3267982 --> 00:44:58,320.3277982
I mean, it's as easy as that.

482
00:44:58,350.3277982 --> 00:45:10,10.3277982
Like if I, I used to spend also so much time on Instagram, feel every minute, But now I just get something done or like do other things, which also leaves more time for art making.

483
00:45:10,340.3277982 --> 00:45:13,410.3277982
But I would say still the comparison one is the biggest one.

484
00:45:13,460.3277982 --> 00:45:15,520.3267982
It really used to make me very insecure.

485
00:45:16,835.3277982 --> 00:45:19,355.3277982
I would doubt every idea I had.

486
00:45:19,795.3277982 --> 00:45:29,65.3277982
And like after these retreats, I always, it feels always for me, especially when I'm even disconnected from WhatsApp, everything, it feels like I, I touch my core again.

487
00:45:30,45.3277982 --> 00:45:35,600.3277982
Like no anxiety, just going back to who you are, who we are meant to be.

488
00:45:36,615.3277982 --> 00:45:41,645.3277982
It's a really, yeah, it's really difficult to put it into words, but yeah, it's so beautiful.

489
00:45:41,645.3277982 --> 00:45:42,905.3277982
It helps you touch your core.,

490
00:45:43,245.3277982 --> 00:45:49,345.3297982
we talked a little bit about the subconscious effect and how that happens and, you know, not to underestimate what's going on subconsciously.

491
00:45:49,755.3287982 --> 00:45:52,205.3297982
I think only recently have I.

492
00:45:52,520.3297982 --> 00:45:57,520.3297982
been able to start to see comparison for so long.

493
00:45:57,550.3297982 --> 00:46:05,240.3287982
I felt like that's not a thing for me because it felt like, Oh, I, I was too, I was so much locked into my cognitive.

494
00:46:05,290.3297982 --> 00:46:07,810.3297982
I know, I don't know.

495
00:46:07,960.3287982 --> 00:46:10,90.3287982
It just felt like that wasn't a thing.

496
00:46:10,90.3297982 --> 00:46:15,320.3297982
And then I started to realize that energy shift was how it manifested for me.

497
00:46:15,500.3297982 --> 00:46:18,410.3297982
It wasn't even that, I was thinking I'm not as good or whatever.

498
00:46:18,420.3297982 --> 00:46:27,320.3297982
It would just feel like this shift of energy into Ugh, just icky, I feel so elated and see something and being like, Oh, I believe in this so much.

499
00:46:27,320.3297982 --> 00:46:29,80.3297982
And I'm so, you know, that's beautiful.

500
00:46:29,80.3297982 --> 00:46:34,60.3287982
And when someone does something amazing, and then I was like, Oh my gosh, I'm not even having that thought.

501
00:46:34,110.3297982 --> 00:46:35,370.3307982
I'm not as good.

502
00:46:35,580.3307982 --> 00:46:38,40.3307982
It would just be like this icky feeling in me.

503
00:46:38,510.3307982 --> 00:46:39,420.3302982
And that is it.

504
00:46:39,450.3302982 --> 00:46:49,165.3302982
I relate it to, um, the first time I learned about codependence in a nuanced way in because I was like, Oh, Codependence, it never resonated with the word.

505
00:46:49,165.3302982 --> 00:46:50,685.3302982
I never took any time with it.

506
00:46:51,55.3302982 --> 00:47:02,65.3297982
Um, but then when I heard someone talk about it in a sense that wasn't debilitating, but in a very realistic way in their life of like, yeah, I, you know, I don't really feel okay unless my partner is okay.

507
00:47:02,65.3297982 --> 00:47:02,305.3292982
Right.

508
00:47:02,385.3302982 --> 00:47:02,865.3302982
Whatever.

509
00:47:03,115.3292982 --> 00:47:06,205.3302982
I'm like, Oh yeah, that I, yeah.

510
00:47:07,335.3302982 --> 00:47:14,385.3292982
So it takes a while for, for, to kind of understand the insidious ways that were impacted, um, by these things.

511
00:47:14,385.3302982 --> 00:47:17,295.3302982
I think for me, my anxiety and my.

512
00:47:17,640.3302982 --> 00:47:26,570.3302982
overconsumption is actually more, uh, uh, safety and like fear based in terms of like hyper vigilance.

513
00:47:26,570.3302982 --> 00:47:34,350.3292982
I feel like if I can just be aware of every bad thing that could possibly happen, I can stop it or I can be aware of it or I can call it out earlier.

514
00:47:34,350.3292982 --> 00:47:44,885.3302982
I could, which as we know with like, Like the idea of like attracting like what's on your mind, you know, it's not helpful, but it also it's very addicting.

515
00:47:44,885.3302982 --> 00:47:47,975.3302982
It's like, Oh gosh, but this crazy thing happened to this person.

516
00:47:47,985.3302982 --> 00:47:53,895.3292982
And if I just know everything I can about what happened to them, I perhaps can stop it from happening in my life.

517
00:47:53,895.3302982 --> 00:48:01,915.3302982
And, but I think like what you said, I like, I think I can only name it now that I was comparing myself.

518
00:48:01,935.3302982 --> 00:48:11,765.3302982
But when I was like, In these experiences for me, it was also like some kind of weird feeling, but I couldn't exactly, I think, yeah, definitely.

519
00:48:11,765.3302982 --> 00:48:25,585.3302982
It's now that I've really like for the past 10 months, I really cut down my Instagram users to like once a week, like for 10 minutes or like even every two weeks, there was a time I didn't log on for a month because I was like, I'm not really interested.

520
00:48:26,295.3302982 --> 00:48:33,390.3302982
So, but now because I know different, I can give it a Name, I can name it.

521
00:48:33,390.3302982 --> 00:48:34,360.3302982
I can label it.

522
00:48:34,850.3302982 --> 00:48:51,300.3302982
But it's like the same as like, you know, my dad smoked cigarettes for many years and he said he had forgotten how it feels not to smoke cigarettes, how it feels to be healthy, how it feels like, how it feels, how nice it feels in his lungs.

523
00:48:52,130.3302982 --> 00:49:03,560.3302982
If you're still having these experiences or like these habits, You don't even know any different and only when you distance yourself, and I think these retreats always helped me to distance myself.

524
00:49:03,860.3302982 --> 00:49:06,510.3302982
Then you start reflecting on these things again.

525
00:49:06,950.3292982 --> 00:49:08,350.3302982
It's like with everything.

526
00:49:08,350.3302982 --> 00:49:16,890.3302982
I think it's not just like with social media, you know, when you, I don't know, have had a time of like where you're not eating very healthy and then you start eating healthy again.

527
00:49:16,890.3302982 --> 00:49:22,150.3302982
You're like, wow, like I was actually feeling quite tired because I wasn't really, you know.

528
00:49:22,710.3302982 --> 00:49:26,400.3302982
that healthy with my meals or exercising with everything.

529
00:49:26,410.3302982 --> 00:49:33,290.3302982
Suddenly when you distance yourself again from something, then you can name it or see the difference.

530
00:49:34,250.3292982 --> 00:49:36,870.3302982
I'm like writing that quote down because I know different.

531
00:49:36,950.3302982 --> 00:49:37,700.3302982
I can name it.

532
00:49:37,830.3292982 --> 00:49:38,450.3292982
That's it.

533
00:49:38,450.3302982 --> 00:49:44,260.3302982
I mean that we were just talking about that with, um, your move, like from Germany to England.

534
00:49:44,260.3302982 --> 00:49:48,870.3302982
It's like, uh, because you have that space, then you can name it.

535
00:49:48,920.3292982 --> 00:49:53,260.3302982
Then you can like, yeah, because in, in NLP.

536
00:49:54,285.3302982 --> 00:50:20,225.3292982
Neurolinguistic programming, we, it's funny, we'll do, there's different processes and one of them is like a values discovery process and, you know, oftentimes when we're introspective and we can, like, I've looked at that, I'm like, I don't need that, I know what my values are, but when there's something about being forced to, like, name and select and put them in order that is very sobering and very illuminating, but there's a specific part in the process where, um, um, Yeah.

537
00:50:20,555.3302982 --> 00:50:25,725.3302982
You have to keep pushing and like, not pushing, but like, that's not the right word, but, you know, say, okay.

538
00:50:25,735.3302982 --> 00:50:28,565.3302982
And then, and then, is that it? Is it complete? Okay.

539
00:50:28,565.3302982 --> 00:50:30,35.3302982
And then you ask a couple more questions.

540
00:50:30,385.3302982 --> 00:50:35,315.3302982
And finally, you uncover the thing that goes number one on the list, but it was so big.

541
00:50:35,510.3302982 --> 00:50:39,20.3302982
Your lens is so big, it's like panoramic that you can't see around it.

542
00:50:39,300.3302982 --> 00:50:42,710.3302982
So you don't even know to name that as your most important thing because it is so big.

543
00:50:42,720.3302982 --> 00:50:47,510.3297982
You don't even, so, and these are the things that are driving our lives.

544
00:50:47,510.3297982 --> 00:51:06,425.3302982
And that's why it's so important to do this subconscious work because, um, you know, having the awareness over those, that intimate awareness gives you, um, gives you the possibility even to decide whether or not you still want to be on that train, to like, or, or shift.

545
00:51:06,735.3302982 --> 00:51:10,775.3292982
Um, because oftentimes those are not our own choices.

546
00:51:10,785.3302982 --> 00:51:15,435.3302982
Those are just what we grew up in, like in life and society and all that jazz.

547
00:51:15,885.3302982 --> 00:51:29,535.3292982
Um, I would love to dig a little bit into your act, your artwork and your writing and, um, whatever you want around that, like what, whether it's your experience in doing that, or what the work is about.

548
00:51:29,565.3302982 --> 00:51:33,945.3312982
I know oftentimes it's kind of hard to say what the work is about and the tricky question.

549
00:51:34,435.3292982 --> 00:51:41,725.3292982
But whatever you want to say about your creations and the relation between your writing and your sculpture and all of that.

550
00:51:41,745.3292982 --> 00:51:42,825.3302982
I'd love to hear more about it.

551
00:51:43,795.3302982 --> 00:51:45,875.3292982
Yeah, I think like for me anyway, um.

552
00:51:47,675.3302982 --> 00:51:52,715.3302982
Writing is, has been my creative outlet from all my life, I think, always.

553
00:51:52,835.3302982 --> 00:51:55,105.3302982
As a child, I also used to read a lot.

554
00:51:55,105.3302982 --> 00:52:10,229.2302982
So I think because I have all these thoughts, writing was always like something So, yeah, I think writing has been, that's why like, you know, I, I used to have this blog on blogger.

555
00:52:10,229.2302982 --> 00:52:19,379.2292982
com writing has always been my creative outlet, except like when I was way younger, when my grandma was alive, I did sewing embroidery.

556
00:52:19,379.2302982 --> 00:52:24,549.2302982
I used to sew my old clothes, like pillow cases for my mom, all these kinds of things.

557
00:52:25,189.2302982 --> 00:52:30,549.2302982
And, um, but that's also due to, like, I'm like, So I have tremor on my hands.

558
00:52:30,549.3302982 --> 00:52:32,529.2302982
I've had it since I'm a child.

559
00:52:32,589.2302982 --> 00:52:34,39.2302982
They're always a bit shaky.

560
00:52:34,479.2302982 --> 00:52:39,209.2302982
And for that reason, for many years, I thought I can't do any drawing.

561
00:52:39,249.2302982 --> 00:52:40,529.2302982
I can't do any painting.

562
00:52:40,539.2302982 --> 00:52:45,189.2292982
I can't do any kind of art that requires me to be precise with my hands.

563
00:52:45,199.2292982 --> 00:52:57,649.2302982
So I was telling myself all these stories, but then like, again, last year, I know, I know, but this has also limited my creative process to only writing.

564
00:52:57,889.2302982 --> 00:52:58,909.2302982
I still think.

565
00:52:59,184.2302982 --> 00:53:00,474.2302982
I love writing.

566
00:53:00,504.2302982 --> 00:53:08,534.2302982
It is really my, my space, but now I also realized I love ceramics.

567
00:53:08,554.2302982 --> 00:53:09,584.2302982
I'm obsessed with it.

568
00:53:09,654.2302982 --> 00:53:15,494.2302982
I love, you know, touching and forming and shaping things and painting.

569
00:53:15,494.2302982 --> 00:53:16,894.2292982
I'm not really sure about it.

570
00:53:16,894.2302982 --> 00:53:28,94.2297982
I'm taking some classes now to learn, to draw like the basic elements of drawing, because I didn't go to art school and I have this artist friend who's giving me some lessons, but that has also limited.

571
00:53:28,94.2297982 --> 00:53:28,214.2292982
It's.

572
00:53:28,459.2302982 --> 00:53:58,729.2302982
Me and my creative journey Uh until I realized last year i'm like I can still do it even if it's not perfect And then I think I remember one One day I went on Google and I searched artists with tremor and then I was so surprised how many artists there are out there, also painters who have tremor, like really famous artists, but they just made it part of their art because you know, who says the line that you're drawing needs to be straight.

573
00:53:58,879.2302982 --> 00:54:09,219.2292982
It can be, it can have your, how do you call it? Like your own touch and your tremor and maybe your own touch is that it's a bit wonky the line and it's not straight.

574
00:54:10,544.2302982 --> 00:54:26,679.2292982
So yeah, I think this, and then when I fully embrace it now, I'm like, You know what? I don't actually want to create perfect things like, you know, I want to make things that I like, and I actually like not so perfect things.

575
00:54:26,709.2302982 --> 00:54:28,289.2302982
I like more abstract things.

576
00:54:28,769.2302982 --> 00:54:32,49.2302982
I don't even want to create like plates or cups or whatever.

577
00:54:32,49.2302982 --> 00:54:44,699.2292982
I create these crazy, like yesterday I was in the ceramic studio and some people were looking at me, like I took a big chunk of clay and I was just like carving it out because I saw this beautiful landscape when I celebrated my birthday in Crete.

578
00:54:45,829.2302982 --> 00:54:46,609.2302982
It was rocks.

579
00:54:46,639.2302982 --> 00:55:01,899.2312982
And then in the middle there was a seed, I don't know, how do you call it? Um, you know, when you have like big rocks on both sides and then in the middle you have a carving into the rocks, but it was such a beautiful and I have still this visual.

580
00:55:01,899.2312982 --> 00:55:04,439.2312982
So I was trying to carve that into the clay.

581
00:55:04,779.2312982 --> 00:55:09,929.2312982
And if you look at it, you're like, what is this? Like, what is she doing? But I think I'm at that point.

582
00:55:09,939.2312982 --> 00:55:10,669.2312982
I'm like, I don't care.

583
00:55:11,94.2312982 --> 00:55:12,934.2312982
You know, I enjoy doing it.

584
00:55:13,24.2312982 --> 00:55:13,984.2312982
This is what I want to do.

585
00:55:14,264.2312982 --> 00:55:16,324.2312982
I want to do what I'm drawn to.

586
00:55:16,864.2312982 --> 00:55:34,674.2312982
And I actually, maybe because all these years I tried to be this perfect daughter, the perfect immigrant, perfect this, I was putting so much pressure on myself to have good grades, to prove myself that I am worthy, even like, you know, being an immigrant.

587
00:55:35,409.2312982 --> 00:55:38,499.2312982
to live a certain life and to live a different life.

588
00:55:38,829.2312982 --> 00:55:43,89.2312982
I think I've like finally decided I don't want to be this perfect.

589
00:55:43,119.2312982 --> 00:55:46,109.2312982
I don't want this perfect life because it doesn't exist anyway.

590
00:55:46,659.2312982 --> 00:55:47,979.2307982
And it's like too stressful.

591
00:55:47,979.2307982 --> 00:55:53,729.2322982
And now I think it's like my art is the opposite of what my life has been.

592
00:55:53,824.2312982 --> 00:56:00,604.2312982
For many years, like, you know, working for big corporates, studying at a top university, having good grades, like all this pressure I was putting on myself.

593
00:56:01,14.2312982 --> 00:56:03,314.2302982
Now I'm like doing the exact opposite of my art.

594
00:56:03,574.2312982 --> 00:56:04,594.2312982
It's like imperfect.

595
00:56:04,614.2312982 --> 00:56:07,714.2302982
I'm like carving and doing really weird and random things.

596
00:56:08,434.2312982 --> 00:56:10,684.2312982
And even with my sub stack, like.

597
00:56:10,944.2312982 --> 00:56:14,54.2312982
For the longest time, I was like, Oh my God, I need to have a niche.

598
00:56:14,84.2312982 --> 00:56:18,514.2312982
You know, everyone is having, I need to stick to one topic.

599
00:56:18,514.2312982 --> 00:56:52,184.1312982
No, like I want to write about whatever interests me and whoever reads my blog will be people who also have different interests, who also resonate with my writing and not because I've chosen to write about mindfulness or I've chosen to write about business, like, you know, And the more I embrace it, the naturally you know, there is a path that is like shown to me and I feel like now I don't have a niche on my blog, but I also realize everything I'm writing is important to me.

600
00:56:52,954.2312982 --> 00:57:08,554.2312982
I called it like in between spaces of our lives that we see, but not notice like this awareness, certain kinds of emotions that we feel or like certain things that I reflect being an artist, like all these reflections that we have in our life.

601
00:57:08,554.2312982 --> 00:57:13,674.2312982
So maybe there is some kind of niche that I have now, but you are the niche, you.

602
00:57:13,674.3312982 --> 00:57:22,544.2312982
I think, and this is the thing we're all trying really hard to be unique and have a niche, but every human being is unique.

603
00:57:22,774.2312982 --> 00:57:30,174.2312982
You are unique with all your interests and, you know, everything that you, all the experiences that you bring into your art.

604
00:57:30,414.2312982 --> 00:57:35,684.2302982
I am unique with my experiences and my life and my background, my roots and everything.

605
00:57:36,214.2312982 --> 00:57:39,934.2312982
We don't even have to try because we are already unique.

606
00:57:39,954.2302982 --> 00:57:45,464.2312982
And we just like our art just needs to reflect who we are or like not who we are, but like.

607
00:57:46,444.2312982 --> 00:57:54,254.2312982
The things that we are interested in, our experiences, our feelings, everything that touches us that we want to show in our art.

608
00:57:54,284.2302982 --> 00:57:56,394.2312982
I think that is already niche and unique.

609
00:57:58,234.2312982 --> 00:57:58,754.2312982
I'm so emotional.

610
00:57:58,754.3312982 --> 00:58:00,404.2312982
I'm so emotional.

611
00:58:00,854.2312982 --> 00:58:10,294.2312982
I'm so emotional when you said, um, I mean, I just, the jugular was hot when you said you'd Googled artists with tremor, tremor, whatever you said.

612
00:58:10,364.2312982 --> 00:58:18,799.2312982
Like, oh my God, like, this is why it's so important to, and then what's so crazy is that, It's like your whole life, there's this thing.

613
00:58:19,249.2312982 --> 00:58:26,149.2302982
And then all of a sudden it, I got the visual of like blowing a bubble or a balloon and you just blow it and blow it tighter and tighter and bigger.

614
00:58:26,149.2312982 --> 00:58:27,819.2302982
And all of a sudden it pops and then it's nothing.

615
00:58:28,349.2312982 --> 00:58:30,739.2312982
And then all of a sudden you're like, I'm fully embracing this.

616
00:58:30,739.2312982 --> 00:58:34,579.2312982
And it's like my whole life, so much air, so much energy.

617
00:58:34,579.2312982 --> 00:58:35,509.2307982
You want to answer this thing.

618
00:58:35,509.2307982 --> 00:58:37,39.2312982
And it was like constrict tighter and tighter.

619
00:58:37,39.2312982 --> 00:58:38,9.2312982
And all of a sudden it pops.

620
00:58:38,29.2312982 --> 00:58:41,619.2312982
And then, and then all of a sudden you're just like in.

621
00:58:41,859.2312982 --> 00:58:47,649.2312982
And not that it's never, ever an issue again, or maybe it can be, but like, I don't know.

622
00:58:47,649.2312982 --> 00:58:50,279.2312982
There's just something so profoundly beautiful about that.

623
00:58:50,279.2312982 --> 00:58:56,119.2312982
And then as you were talking, everything that you just shared, all the notes from our conversation thus far has come up.

624
00:58:56,119.2312982 --> 00:59:26,694.2297982
It's like, you're like, and then I was on, you know, holiday for my birthday and I saw this and then it came into this art and if you were very strict with your finances, would you gone on a trip for your birthday? And like, it's just like, All of this, the common thread to me is just like, if you just move with what feels good, not what is quote unquote luxury, like not what is something that is labeled by someone else or something that, you know, was put on you by, you know, whoever, whatever in life.

625
00:59:26,714.2317982 --> 00:59:36,484.2312982
But when you just tap in and you're touching your center, like you said, and you just move with what is good and what inspires you and what you want to do, nothing but good comes from that.

626
00:59:36,764.2322982 --> 00:59:37,624.2322982
Always.

627
00:59:37,734.2322982 --> 00:59:39,784.2322982
Like, that's the only thing you can trust.

628
00:59:39,984.2322982 --> 00:59:40,544.2322982
Only.

629
00:59:41,184.2322982 --> 00:59:42,184.2322982
Totally agree.

630
00:59:42,604.2322982 --> 00:59:46,634.2322982
And I think this is why I think children are such an inspiration.

631
00:59:46,634.2322982 --> 00:59:47,854.2322982
I mean, you have children as well.

632
00:59:47,864.2322982 --> 00:59:48,324.2322982
Look at them.

633
00:59:48,324.2322982 --> 00:59:49,234.2322982
They're so careless.

634
00:59:49,294.2322982 --> 00:59:51,794.2312982
They don't care if something looks good.

635
00:59:51,794.2312982 --> 00:59:54,404.2322982
If something is a straight line, they just play.

636
00:59:54,444.2322982 --> 00:59:55,814.2312982
They just do whatever they want.

637
00:59:56,284.2322982 --> 01:00:03,134.2322982
They don't, you know, they don't even come and ask you, do you like this? Will this be good? Will people like it? They don't care.

638
01:00:03,334.2322982 --> 01:00:05,944.2322982
They just do whatever they're so in the moment.

639
01:00:05,964.2322982 --> 01:00:34,9.2322982
And I, I, and that's why like as, as adults, I, I really strive to unlearn a lot of the things that I learned over the years, I think that comes to the point, you don't, you don't want to learn anymore, it's more unlearning rather than, you know, Learning something new onto all these old habits that you've acquired over the years that may not be so healthy, that are really influencing the work that you're doing.

640
01:00:34,519.2312982 --> 01:00:42,519.2322982
If we, you know, could be like 10 percent of how children are, wow, that would be already so amazing.

641
01:00:43,209.2322982 --> 01:00:44,139.1322982
Yeah, it's crazy.

642
01:00:44,299.2322982 --> 01:00:44,629.2322982
It's crazy.

643
01:00:44,629.2322982 --> 01:00:45,679.2322982
It's crazy to watch.

644
01:00:45,689.2322982 --> 01:00:49,779.2322982
Like, I feel like both of my kids are so opposite.

645
01:00:49,789.2322982 --> 01:00:52,619.2322982
They're like two opposite parts of me.

646
01:00:52,629.2322982 --> 01:00:54,189.2322982
One doesn't give a fuck.

647
01:00:54,719.2322982 --> 01:00:59,834.2322982
Like one is just like, just so It's so scary.

648
01:01:00,94.2322982 --> 01:01:05,924.2322982
And then the other one is so sensitive and so tender and so worried about everyone.

649
01:01:05,924.2322982 --> 01:01:25,904.2312982
And, um, yeah, and it's just so, uh, it's so interesting parenting that and like wanting to foster that and having that awareness and seeing it and seeing things and feeling that reaction that you wouldn't have recognized if you weren't trying to parent yourself outside of your body type of thing in that way.

650
01:01:26,284.2312982 --> 01:01:35,754.2322982
And I, This unlearning is, um, a very strong topic for me because I love, I love school.

651
01:01:35,754.2322982 --> 01:01:38,144.2322982
I feel like if I could afford it, I'd be in school my whole life.

652
01:01:38,144.2322982 --> 01:01:39,124.2312982
Like I would get my master's.

653
01:01:39,124.3312982 --> 01:01:40,294.2312982
I love it.

654
01:01:40,554.2322982 --> 01:01:52,314.2322982
And also I really feel like, um, so much of what is true has only come after rejecting so much of what I've learned.

655
01:01:52,324.2322982 --> 01:01:53,914.2322982
Like I love learning it.

656
01:01:53,914.2322982 --> 01:01:57,714.2322982
And also it's so important to unlearn it and like put it away.

657
01:01:58,74.2322982 --> 01:02:00,619.2322982
Um, I, I found that recently.

658
01:02:01,734.2322982 --> 01:02:12,844.2322982
Uh, for the first time I'd say I was able to really intuitively reject, like looking and you said you get like tired of learning.

659
01:02:12,844.2322982 --> 01:02:20,194.2322982
It's like, no, but also, yes, I wanna make a, like a card deck and, uh, in some way of like, you know, whatever.

660
01:02:20,194.2322982 --> 01:02:21,394.2322982
Anyway, I wanna make a card deck.

661
01:02:21,814.2322982 --> 01:02:22,569.2322982
And there was.

662
01:02:23,119.2322982 --> 01:02:28,369.2322982
Uh, a friend of mine was like, Hey, there's someone I know is uh, hosting a masterclass on like how to make an Oracle deck.

663
01:02:28,369.2322982 --> 01:02:29,739.2312982
And immediately it was like, Oh, so cool.

664
01:02:29,739.2322982 --> 01:02:30,399.2322982
Cause I want to do that.

665
01:02:30,399.2322982 --> 01:02:30,779.2322982
And that's that.

666
01:02:30,779.2322982 --> 01:02:31,229.2312982
And I love her.

667
01:02:31,229.2322982 --> 01:02:31,879.2322982
And I'm like, no.

668
01:02:32,709.2322982 --> 01:02:36,119.2322982
I don't want, because I don't, I don't want to have any form of reference.

669
01:02:36,169.2322982 --> 01:02:43,189.2322982
I don't want, I'm so tired of already being able to pull so much like in my brain of like what I've seen.

670
01:02:43,189.2322982 --> 01:02:48,589.2322982
I don't want, I want it to be from me in whatever way, like I haven't used Oracle Dex a lot in my life.

671
01:02:48,589.2322982 --> 01:02:53,639.2322982
Like it's a recent thing and I really enjoy, um, the, how they function in my life.

672
01:02:53,639.2322982 --> 01:02:57,879.2322982
I love the idea of like picking something and all of a sudden relating it to everything in your day.

673
01:02:57,879.2322982 --> 01:02:58,239.2322982
I love that.

674
01:02:58,239.3322982 --> 01:02:58,649.1322982
Bye.

675
01:02:58,849.2322982 --> 01:03:04,389.2322982
And also I'm very ignorant to so much of like the how it should be used and how it could be used and blah, blah, blah.

676
01:03:04,389.2322982 --> 01:03:06,539.2322982
And I want to play on that.

677
01:03:06,579.2322982 --> 01:03:18,749.2322982
And, um, so knowing when it feels like nourishing and good to learn and having that grain of salt in the back of your head, knowing that like, yes, I'm learning this and also I can let it go, let it go, let it go.

678
01:03:19,139.2322982 --> 01:03:22,79.2322982
Um, and when to like reject it and pull away.

679
01:03:22,994.2322982 --> 01:03:40,504.2322982
I think there is one thing to learn, like the actual skills, like I'm taking drawing classes, learning how to really, you know, it's very skill based, but another learning is like, you know what I was trying, what I was saying, what I was saying about Instagram, getting all this inspiration from artists.

680
01:03:40,844.2312982 --> 01:03:44,764.2322982
I think, you know, we need to also differentiate what does learning mean.

681
01:03:45,339.2322982 --> 01:03:48,9.2322982
You know, but I totally get you.

682
01:03:48,19.2322982 --> 01:03:52,459.2322982
I am at the point I want less, as less inspiration as possible.

683
01:03:52,459.2322982 --> 01:03:55,169.2322982
So my own ideas can come up to the surface.

684
01:03:55,539.2322982 --> 01:04:02,619.2317982
And then if I realize, Oh shit, I actually need to learn this skill specific skill to do it.

685
01:04:02,619.2317982 --> 01:04:02,929.2312982
I don't know.

686
01:04:02,939.2312982 --> 01:04:12,99.2312982
I may need to learn a program to do like a offer a course or whatever, something technical that's different, but like, I think generally the idea generation.

687
01:04:12,929.2322982 --> 01:04:17,349.2322982
Yeah, it's, it's nice to do something and.

688
01:04:18,249.2322982 --> 01:04:41,659.2322982
You know, it's come up from your own ideas and you were not influenced by, I mean, of course, everything we see and everything we do influences our work, but not to have always like these visuals and there's too much input that we have these days and just focus on your, what is your inner voice telling you? Like, I want it this way.

689
01:04:41,659.2322982 --> 01:04:44,129.2322982
And I try and do that with my writing too.

690
01:04:44,179.2322982 --> 01:04:48,199.2322982
Like I, of course I have, I'm subscribed to many subsects and I read them and everything.

691
01:04:48,769.2322982 --> 01:04:53,609.2322982
But when I write about a new topic, I try and not do much research.

692
01:04:53,639.2322982 --> 01:04:56,449.2322982
I first get my, all my thoughts into the paper.

693
01:04:56,909.2322982 --> 01:05:03,569.2322982
And if there is like a topic that I need to research, because like this church, I want to look up from which year it is.

694
01:05:03,599.2322982 --> 01:05:05,769.2322982
And then I go, but first I like.

695
01:05:06,239.2322982 --> 01:05:09,769.2322982
I use this program, Ulysses, which is like a distraction free writing.

696
01:05:09,799.2322982 --> 01:05:11,279.2322982
So I get all my thoughts.

697
01:05:11,499.2322982 --> 01:05:24,789.2322982
And then if I need to look up something, um, I look up, but before in the past, I used to do a lot of research, like research to point, like, I don't think it's always that.

698
01:05:25,94.2322982 --> 01:05:27,94.2322982
That's good, maybe, for credibility.

699
01:05:28,64.2322982 --> 01:05:28,464.2322982
Mm hmm.

700
01:05:28,934.2322982 --> 01:05:29,364.2322982
Yeah.

701
01:05:29,424.2322982 --> 01:05:40,694.2322982
Because it's like, I feel like I'm allergic to things, like, unless I I either care about it so much it makes me sick, or I can't even read a sentence about it.

702
01:05:41,814.2322982 --> 01:05:44,474.2322982
It's like no in between there.

703
01:05:44,744.2322982 --> 01:05:53,674.2322982
And, uh, and it's also that there's a form of research that almost feels like, um, a justification or a validation.

704
01:05:53,674.2322982 --> 01:06:05,9.2322982
And it's like, okay, when is, when did my curiosity and interest stop? And when it came that I want to feel like I, I have the right to speak on this or what, you know, whatever, whatever comes to play in that area.

705
01:06:05,419.2322982 --> 01:06:07,539.2322982
Um, Oh my gosh.

706
01:06:07,559.2322982 --> 01:06:07,799.2322982
Yeah.

707
01:06:07,799.2322982 --> 01:06:40,704.2322982
You know, I find in terms of inspiration now, the most, the most inspired, I find myself like tingly inspiration is, is, is, is, Being able to witness people's, like, right now, like, what we're talking about, like, as you go into that space where you describe, like, what life is like, and now what the creative, creative act is like, and just people living life in this way, like, people, like, finding their own way of living life that feels good, like, that is the most inspiring thing.

708
01:06:40,924.2322982 --> 01:06:51,314.2322982
To me, like my, uh, the last, um, one of my podcast episodes before I've gone, I've gone on such a streak of talking to other people when it's been only me for so long.

709
01:06:51,314.2322982 --> 01:06:52,594.2322982
And I was just so sick of myself.

710
01:06:52,824.2312982 --> 01:07:03,924.2322982
So talking to artists recently, and I just find I am so torn apart in the best way by watching people navigate life.

711
01:07:04,134.2322982 --> 01:07:21,734.2322982
And prioritizing their creative impulses because it's so nonsensical in this way, but also very obviously the only thing that really matters in life, like the most important, not the only thing, but the most important thing that matters is honoring that thing.

712
01:07:21,744.2322982 --> 01:07:24,384.1322982
You cannot explain until it's, you make it.

713
01:07:24,384.2322982 --> 01:07:28,224.2322982
And then you're like, this right here, this.

714
01:07:28,439.3322982 --> 01:07:52,409.2322982
What do you do with your sculptures? I mean, now at the moment I've given, like, I'm collecting them myself, but, um, what, like with ceramics now, because it's also quite expensive hobby, you know, to have, um, uh, so sometimes I make things like yesterday I was in the studio, I had made something two weeks ago.

715
01:07:52,739.2322982 --> 01:07:56,999.2322982
I looked at it again and some parts I didn't like it, so I just destroyed it.

716
01:07:57,59.2322982 --> 01:07:59,539.2322982
If the part that I like, I gave it to get.

717
01:07:59,809.2322982 --> 01:08:05,329.2322982
To fight to be fired, but I actually have, uh, an exhibition again with my artist collective.

718
01:08:05,809.2322982 --> 01:08:09,419.2322982
So I'm working like experimenting in autumn.

719
01:08:09,429.2312982 --> 01:08:11,469.2322982
Probably we're looking for a location in Berlin.

720
01:08:12,39.2322982 --> 01:08:31,829.2322982
Um, yeah, I think I will like the epoxy sculpture that I made was also for the exhibition last year, but I think I am now at the point I'm like, yeah, what do I do with all this? Do I want to maybe I have built a website now, so I probably put things on my website and maybe I'm at that point.

721
01:08:31,829.2322982 --> 01:08:37,829.2322982
I'm like, yeah, maybe there are people who are interested in buying my sculptures and I need to start.

722
01:08:38,599.2322982 --> 01:08:42,169.2322982
That next step of like showing my work.

723
01:08:42,169.2322982 --> 01:08:52,849.2312982
And if someone, if there is someone out there who resonates with my work and they want to buy it, then, you know, you might guess, of course, but I try not to, because I work in corporate.

724
01:08:52,849.2312982 --> 01:08:55,239.2312982
So this is my problem sometimes that I.

725
01:08:56,889.2322982 --> 01:09:05,509.2322982
Can easily get into that of like, Oh, how, like, how do I sell this? How do I marketing market this? And I don't want to do that.

726
01:09:05,519.2312982 --> 01:09:15,419.2322982
Like I started writing my first book and I was already thinking, what do I self publish it? Or I find a publisher for it.

727
01:09:16,599.2322982 --> 01:09:23,189.2312982
And then a friend who has written a book, he's like, maybe you need to take a break and first focus on your writing.

728
01:09:23,189.2312982 --> 01:09:26,209.2312982
I'm like, yeah, this is what happens when you work also.

729
01:09:26,889.2322982 --> 01:09:30,229.2322982
Trying to juggle because art doesn't work like that.

730
01:09:30,279.2322982 --> 01:09:35,69.2322982
Of course you can, everyone can sell their art and it's great if you can sell it.

731
01:09:35,509.2322982 --> 01:09:40,79.2322982
But yeah, I want to shift away from putting pressure to myself on myself.

732
01:09:40,189.2312982 --> 01:09:41,869.2322982
I need to sell everything I'm making.

733
01:09:42,209.2322982 --> 01:09:46,449.2312982
I'm sharing it now more and more on my sub stack on my Instagram.

734
01:09:46,449.2322982 --> 01:09:52,799.2322982
I've shared some visuals and everything, but I don't want it to be pushy.

735
01:09:53,159.2322982 --> 01:09:54,869.2322982
Oh, I need to sell all this.

736
01:09:55,719.2322982 --> 01:09:56,59.2322982
Yeah.

737
01:09:56,59.3322982 --> 01:09:56,309.1322982
Yeah.

738
01:09:56,789.2322982 --> 01:09:57,149.2322982
Yeah.

739
01:09:57,899.2322982 --> 01:10:06,199.2322982
Yeah, when you said, um, It's more about playing at the moment and experimenting and seeing with whatever I feel comfortable with.

740
01:10:06,679.2322982 --> 01:10:07,79.2322982
Yeah.

741
01:10:07,699.2322982 --> 01:10:10,599.2322982
I will then probably put it on my website and see.

742
01:10:10,599.3322982 --> 01:10:11,669.1322982
Yeah.

743
01:10:11,669.2322982 --> 01:10:14,639.2322982
What happens? Does this feel good? Does this not feel good? Yeah.

744
01:10:14,649.2322982 --> 01:10:16,19.2322982
Am I making it? Yeah.

745
01:10:16,89.2312982 --> 01:10:18,699.2322982
Am I putting the cart before the horse? I know.

746
01:10:18,949.2322982 --> 01:10:20,989.2322982
Self publish or reach out to publishers.

747
01:10:21,199.2322982 --> 01:10:22,269.2322982
It's like, whoa, whoa, whoa.

748
01:10:22,529.2322982 --> 01:10:23,549.2322982
It's just so instinctual.

749
01:10:23,589.2322982 --> 01:10:24,429.2322982
And I think it's because.

750
01:10:24,949.2322982 --> 01:10:37,529.2322982
We, when you have that vision, it's so natural once again, like, like as addictive as social media is when you're working on something that you're passionate about, your vision automatically just like takes off and it's a beautiful thing.

751
01:10:37,529.2322982 --> 01:10:50,404.2322982
And it's like, okay, when do you, you know, pull it back and bring back to center, back to presence, back to being in the work? Um, yeah, I find that I, I'm at that point with my work too.

752
01:10:50,404.2322982 --> 01:10:58,44.2322982
It's kind of like, well, what, but what, how do I want it to live that you wrote something on Substack about, uh, I had no idea about cabinet of curiosities.

753
01:10:58,154.2322982 --> 01:10:59,204.2322982
I did not know.

754
01:10:59,434.2312982 --> 01:11:01,244.2322982
I had no idea that that was a thing.

755
01:11:01,634.2322982 --> 01:11:05,234.2322982
And, um, for museums, that is so cool.

756
01:11:05,644.2322982 --> 01:11:15,634.2322982
And there's something about that, that brings me, um, it, it reminds me of, yeah, For me, um, my photographic practice, like, I feel like that is what it is.

757
01:11:15,634.2322982 --> 01:11:24,574.2322982
It's like when I'm in life and I just like this, this, and then this, and then this, and they're not related, but they're the same exact thing at the same time.

758
01:11:25,204.2322982 --> 01:11:28,4.2312982
There are so unrelated and so exactly the same thing.

759
01:11:28,424.2322982 --> 01:11:44,854.2322982
And, um, And yeah, and I'm finding myself like craving just like looking at all the pictures I've taken over my whole life and like going back and I don't know, I have right now my desk is a mess with old hard drives and that my organization is horrifying.

760
01:11:44,864.2312982 --> 01:11:48,514.2312982
But I'm also like, I kind of think about it when you describe.

761
01:11:49,284.2322982 --> 01:11:55,894.2322982
With clay, that's what I'm like, digging in the archives and I'm like, what am I, it's not as sensually, you know, satisfying at all.

762
01:11:56,684.2322982 --> 01:12:00,134.2322982
Since I'm like clicking on files and I'm like cursing myself.

763
01:12:00,134.2322982 --> 01:12:04,884.2322982
Like, what the fuck? Like recent, I can label things recent.

764
01:12:04,894.2312982 --> 01:12:06,534.2312982
I'm like, this is from 2015.

765
01:12:07,654.2312982 --> 01:12:08,644.2322982
Yeah, but don't worry.

766
01:12:08,644.2322982 --> 01:12:11,734.2322982
I'm like, my organization is like, pretty bad as well.

767
01:12:12,24.2322982 --> 01:12:23,989.2322982
But I think, um, This is the advantage when you have a job that pays your bills, that you don't stress too much about, what do I do with these sculptures? Do I sell them? It's more about the playing.

768
01:12:24,449.2322982 --> 01:12:32,789.2322982
And you're like, yeah, if there is something out there, I'm actually gonna put it and I think it is healthy to one to take it to the next level and sell it.

769
01:12:32,869.2322982 --> 01:12:37,889.2322982
I think that's also not, you know, if that's what you want to do, you should definitely do that.

770
01:12:37,889.2322982 --> 01:12:40,389.2322982
I don't think like this whole struggling artist.

771
01:12:40,419.2312982 --> 01:12:41,559.2332982
Also, we shouldn't.

772
01:12:41,944.2322982 --> 01:12:47,784.2322982
You know, not everyone should be struggling, but with me, I have the privilege of my other job paying my bills.

773
01:12:47,794.2322982 --> 01:12:57,724.2322982
So I don't have that financial pressure that I have to already think, what do I do with this? So I'm still like in this experimenting playing phase and that's taking up a lot of time.

774
01:12:57,724.2322982 --> 01:12:59,184.2312982
And I'm so grateful for it.

775
01:12:59,434.2322982 --> 01:13:11,714.2322982
Really grateful that I don't already have to think, Oh, how do I market this? Where, which, uh, gallery do I contact? Where can I do this? Not to think about it.

776
01:13:12,309.2322982 --> 01:13:20,109.2322982
In a way and just concentrate on playing and yeah, finding my way really not even finding my style, but finding my way.

777
01:13:21,999.2322982 --> 01:13:32,859.2312982
Touching like touching that center or just touching center because you don't need to find your way because you are the way to about this conversation has been so life giving for me.

778
01:13:32,859.2312982 --> 01:13:35,99.2322982
I've like welled up multiple times during it.

779
01:13:35,559.2322982 --> 01:13:43,709.2322982
Um, is there anything else that you want to say? Is there anything else? Um, that has come to mind that you want to talk about before we wrap.

780
01:13:45,229.2322982 --> 01:13:45,669.2322982
Yeah.

781
01:13:45,669.2322982 --> 01:13:54,729.2322982
I think like generally like as a conclusion, it's like to conclude this conversation, everything we discussed, like, you know, I, I reflect now in my head.

782
01:13:55,329.2322982 --> 01:14:05,569.2322982
I think we need to realize there is not one way to do, to do things like we're all very individual and we have very individual lives.

783
01:14:05,659.2312982 --> 01:14:16,329.2322982
Some of us have children, some have a mortgage and some have less time, some have more time, some have more capacity, emotional capacity.

784
01:14:16,649.2322982 --> 01:14:19,579.2322982
Some of us deal with mental issues.

785
01:14:20,49.2322982 --> 01:14:28,129.2322982
So we need to stop thinking that there is one way to make art, that there is one way to support your life.

786
01:14:28,559.2322982 --> 01:14:31,669.2322982
I think we all need to find whatever works for us.

787
01:14:31,719.2322982 --> 01:14:36,519.2322982
If four days a week working in a corporate works for me and my art making it works.

788
01:14:36,849.2322982 --> 01:14:39,729.2312982
If it doesn't work next year, then I will change it.

789
01:14:39,979.2312982 --> 01:14:46,254.1322982
And I think this has been my, like, you know, reflection now turning 40.

790
01:14:47,434.2322982 --> 01:14:48,524.2322982
Nothing is final.

791
01:14:48,584.2322982 --> 01:14:51,794.2322982
I can always adjust while I'm going at it.

792
01:14:52,124.2322982 --> 01:14:57,164.2322982
And if I feel like, you know, like end of last year, I felt quite burned out with everything I'm doing.

793
01:14:57,524.2322982 --> 01:14:58,984.2322982
I made some changes.

794
01:14:59,64.2322982 --> 01:15:03,264.2312982
So yeah, I think it's also about not putting pressure on yourself.

795
01:15:04,174.2322982 --> 01:15:07,964.2322982
that everything has to be perfect and that you need to live a certain way.

796
01:15:08,304.2322982 --> 01:15:09,784.2322982
Like, you know, that's why it was great.

797
01:15:09,794.2322982 --> 01:15:12,954.2322982
What you said, you tried this, you were full time.

798
01:15:12,954.2322982 --> 01:15:16,634.2322982
Now you have focused on your art and now you want to do something different.

799
01:15:16,954.2322982 --> 01:15:19,24.2312982
This is like, this is real life.

800
01:15:19,114.2322982 --> 01:15:21,304.2322982
I mean, everything is evolving and changing.

801
01:15:22,294.2312982 --> 01:15:29,414.2322982
And I think exactly with Everything is a chance to start over and try something new.

802
01:15:29,434.2322982 --> 01:15:34,574.2322982
I, um, one of my mentors, she said, I think each breath is a chance to begin again or whatever.

803
01:15:34,824.2322982 --> 01:15:44,124.2322982
And it's like, yeah, well, when you have that much heart and soul and feeling and creation and whatever, into something, everything feels so big and so final.

804
01:15:44,124.2322982 --> 01:15:49,704.2322982
And that's beautiful in and of itself, but also it's so good to remember and you can change your mind completely.

805
01:15:49,734.2322982 --> 01:15:50,394.2322982
And you can.

806
01:15:50,654.2322982 --> 01:16:02,824.2322982
Continue to evolve and you don't need to, um, you know, base your identity and your belief system and your way of living and being creating on the truth that felt like truth in that moment because it was.

807
01:16:03,179.2322982 --> 01:16:05,449.2322982
And your truth changes like over time.

808
01:16:05,449.2322982 --> 01:16:14,609.2322982
So it's so important to be able to be like nimble and flexible with like, and the way to do that is again, plucking into that center.

809
01:16:14,629.2312982 --> 01:16:21,569.2312982
And now I'm like, I definitely need to sign up for a meditation because yearly it's so inspiring.

810
01:16:21,569.2322982 --> 01:16:26,869.2322982
And I feel like that, that is such a way to, to do that and to find that.

811
01:16:27,164.2322982 --> 01:16:28,344.2322982
touch point in your heart.

812
01:16:28,394.2322982 --> 01:16:35,84.2322982
Um, thank you so much too, but where can we find you? Where can people find more from you? Sign up to your sub stack.

813
01:16:35,104.2322982 --> 01:16:40,364.2322982
I'll put all the links in the show notes, um, of this episode, but please share how people can get more from you.

814
01:16:40,914.2322982 --> 01:16:48,54.2322982
I mean, I'm still, even though I don't, I'm not as active on Instagram, I'm tug like I am T U G on Instagram.

815
01:16:48,54.2322982 --> 01:16:52,954.2322982
So occasionally I share some of my artwork, but my whole energy really goes on my sub stack at the moment.

816
01:16:53,4.2322982 --> 01:16:56,574.2322982
So I'm really trying to move it there because.

817
01:16:56,854.2322982 --> 01:17:00,374.2322982
I feel like I can connect much better with people.

818
01:17:00,374.2322982 --> 01:17:18,194.2322982
And now I'm thinking actually, how do I make it like both ways? I'm think I'm going to open up a calendar like you did for your podcast, where some of my readers can schedule like 20 minutes of my calendar and we can have a one on one not like recorded or anything, just a casual meet and greet my friend Nina.

819
01:17:18,624.2322982 --> 01:17:41,34.2322982
She was a founder and she was doing these founder coffee catch ups and then she Like opened up her calendar and everyone was scheduling 20 minutes and she posted on linkedin and she was just meeting And having coffee with like different founders people who were in Area, I think this is what i'm gonna do now on my sub stack So there are a lot of things coming but mainly on my sub stack.

820
01:17:41,314.2322982 --> 01:17:45,599.2322982
So my sub stack My name is Tugba Afjii at subsec.

821
01:17:45,639.2322982 --> 01:17:49,349.2322982
com and my publication is called As Slow As Possible.

822
01:17:49,939.2322982 --> 01:17:51,489.2322982
As Slow As Possible.

823
01:17:51,719.2322982 --> 01:17:53,639.2322982
That's definitely why I clicked on it.

824
01:17:53,669.2322982 --> 01:17:54,419.2312982
I know that.

825
01:17:56,579.2322982 --> 01:17:57,909.2322982
As Slow As Possible.

826
01:17:57,929.2312982 --> 01:17:59,309.2317982
I'm like, help me.

827
01:17:59,309.2317982 --> 01:17:59,919.2312982
Yes.

828
01:18:01,189.2312982 --> 01:18:05,535.8652982
We all want slower, slower life.

829
01:18:05,535.8652982 --> 01:18:07,619.2322982
Oh my gosh.

830
01:18:07,689.2322982 --> 01:18:09,499.2312982
Thank you so, so much.

831
01:18:10,909.2322982 --> 01:18:12,79.2322982
Thank you so much.

832
01:18:12,99.2322982 --> 01:18:12,909.2322982
It was great.

833
01:18:13,549.2322982 --> 01:18:16,129.2322982
Great conversation and definitely do the retreat.

834
01:18:16,159.2322982 --> 01:18:18,269.2322982
I can help you out on that as well.

835
01:18:18,389.2322982 --> 01:18:18,709.2322982
Oh yeah.

836
01:18:19,469.2322982 --> 01:18:19,849.2322982
Yeah.

837
01:18:20,19.2322982 --> 01:18:21,409.2322982
I'm going to have to get that link.

838
01:18:24,29.2322982 --> 01:18:27,249.2322982
This has been an Awkward Sage Production.