How To Form And Sustain Meaningful Relationships According To The Enneagram

00:00:00] Nicole: , the Enneagram helps us get in touch with what we need. And it almost gives us a barometer for when am I, that kind of full, colorful, alive version of myself? What does that look like? And when do I start to fade and detach and, you know, excuse myself and go through the motions and some of those more dull, lower energy behaviors, where we don't really feel fully happy and fully connected.
[00:00:30] Tatiana: Welcome to the Happyish Ever After podcast. That's right, happy ish. Because instead of fairy tales of perfection, we celebrate real lives and real stories. I'm Tatiana, your host, and I'm here to guide you on your journey to better health and self acceptance. Join me every week as we delve into science backed truths about health, from understanding our bodies to caring for our emotional well being.
[00:00:58] Tatiana: Let's get started.[00:01:00] Today is the first day of season two and it's Valentine's Day and I'm so
The Importance of Social Connection and the Dangers of Loneliness
[00:01:08] Tatiana: excited to have this special episode. Valentine's Day can be challenging for some people and a wonderful day for others, but today I'm going to talk about The topic of loneliness with my guest,
[00:01:20] Tatiana: Nicole McDonough. Loneliness has become widespread and what a lot of people don't know is that it has a significant health impact and has become a silent killer of people. In November of 2023, the World Health Organization published a report that said people lacking social connection face a higher risk of early death.
[00:01:39] Tatiana: Social isolation and loneliness are linked to anxiety, depression, suicide, and dementia. And can increase risk of cardiovascular disease and stroke, which is really amazing because for the longest time we thought it was all about exercise and about what we ate, but we're actually finding that social connection is playing a much bigger role in our [00:02:00] health.
Understanding the Enneagram and Its Role in Relationships
[00:02:00] Tatiana: So today we're going to have a conversation about the Enneagram, understanding how we show up in relationships and some thoughts on how we can form new relationships. And if you stay to the end, we'll let you know how you can figure out your Enneagram number. So today.
Guest Introduction: Nicole McDonough, Enneagram Coach
[00:02:16] Tatiana: As I mentioned, we have Nicole McDonough.
[00:02:19] Tatiana: She coaches leaders and entrepreneurs to lead with excellence, focus, and innovation by stepping into their unique superpowers. Using tools like the Enneagram, her clients learn to welcome challenges as opportunities for self reflection so they can thrive in leadership, relationships, and navigate complex dynamics with clarity, insight, and an open heart.
[00:02:39] Tatiana: Welcome, Nicole.
[00:02:41] Nicole: Thank you for having me. It's great to be here.
[00:02:44] Tatiana: Oh, I'm so glad that we were able to make this work. And I'm so glad to have you here because this is such an important topic and people don't really think about it when they think about their health and their wellbeing.
[00:02:57] Nicole: Yeah, I agree. I think I [00:03:00] learned early on in the concept of self care, how connection and play, play just as vital a role as things like sleep and nutrition and exercise, so I'm glad we're talking about it.
[00:03:12] Tatiana: I am too. I feel there's a certain part of the population that still thinks that these things are separate and distinct from each other. And I always instinctively felt like there was a connection, but what I Didn't realize was actual scientific evidence behind the impacts to yourself, like cardiovascular disease that I wouldn't have called.
[00:03:37] Nicole: Yeah,
[00:03:38] Tatiana: So thank you so much, for coming to talk about the Enneagram.
The Enneagram: A Map to Personal Growth and Understanding
[00:03:42] Tatiana: Can you briefly explain to our audience who may not be familiar what the Enneagram is?
[00:03:49] Nicole: absolutely.
The Enneagram and Its Nine Different Starting Points
[00:03:51] Nicole: It gets lumped together with other personality tests and quizzes because that can be one element and one way people find out their personality [00:04:00] type, but I always, I try to think of like the simple fifth grade explanation is the Enneagram is a map, but instead of a map with one starting point and one end point, it has nine different starting points.
[00:04:13] Nicole: So depending on who you are and what your personality personality blueprint is within this specific system, your starting point is going to be different and your path to growth and wholeness and healing is going to be different. So I like to think of it as a map that kind of outlines how do I, as my unique self, become happier, healthier, more grounded, more whole.
[00:04:38] Tatiana: I love that explanation. And it's so easy to conceptualize. That everybody does have a different starting point. So that starting point is that rooted in what element of their number? Like, how does it mean that we have different starting points?
[00:04:55] Nicole: Well, it's funny, I mean, a lot of times when experts give advice, they're [00:05:00] typically kind of reciprocating the advice that worked for them. But if they don't have a way to zoom out and see human behavior from a more, like, bird's eye view or holistic lens, the advice that worked for them isn't going to work for, it's going to work for one ninth of the population, the other people who share their personality type.
[00:05:18] Nicole: And so I always find it so important to really, I mean, take all advice with a grain of salt. But have a way to filter it through, like, does this feel true for me? Does this work for me? Because chances are, what's going to be the best next step for you is going to be different than, you know, the latest article you read or podcast you listen to or something like that.
[00:05:40] Tatiana: How can there be just nine types though?
[00:05:43] Nicole: So that's a great question. And it's definitely something that's easier to explain.
Understanding the Enneagram's Groupings and Their Implications
[00:05:48] Nicole: visually, in terms of kind of shapes and symbols. But the Enneagram has a lot of groupings of three. The law of three is a huge foundational [00:06:00] concept within the Enneagram. And we see this, you know, in everyday life with things like solid, liquid, gas, past, present, future.
[00:06:08] Nicole: I mean, the law of three is something that exists in our world everywhere. And so there are multiple groupings of threes within the Enneagram. And because 3 times 3 is 9. Anytime those laws overlap, it creates nine different outcomes. I guess that's the simplest way I can explain it without like a whiteboard , and some geometry.
[00:06:30] Tatiana: You know, I'd never actually thought about the law of three. And I. I have found the Enneagram to be really interesting, but I've, like you said, you know, people see it from their own lens and I know what my number is and I know I've been very interested in it from that perspective because I'm interested in understanding more of myself.
[00:06:49] Tatiana: And then I sort of try and figure out where my kids are and maybe where people around me are, even though I know that's not how it really works. But how did you [00:07:00] initially.
The Enneagram: A Tool for Self-Reflection and Personal Development
[00:07:00] Tatiana: Become interested in the Enneagram? What drew you to this particular tool and typing tool? It's a typing tool.
[00:07:08] Nicole: It is. Yeah, it's a way to better understand yourself and others, and again, zoom out and kind of see how most of human behavior can fit into this puzzle. So it also, it kind of demystifies problems that maybe feel complex or overwhelming, because you start to see it in terms of patterns. So I got interested, I mean, I've always loved Self reflection and personal development.
[00:07:32] Nicole: I think the first personality test I got pretty, excited about and researched was probably the Myers Briggs, like at age 15 in youth group. I think we, you know, learned about it and I just loved learning about my family members and my friends and myself. Fast forward to my early 20s, I went to graduate school for leadership, school leadership to be, either a principal or a museum director or something like that.
[00:07:54] Nicole: And my favorite classes in that program were all around conflict [00:08:00] resolution and organizational development and anything that involves How do I get the complex web of all the people in this room on board? So my career and personal life just took an interesting trajectory because after graduating and, you know, really ready and excited to use this degree in a school or wherever it may be, I had three kids very quickly in three years.
[00:08:25] Nicole: So I went from, you know, the intellectual academia to full time stay at home mom. mom. So once I kind of came up for air, uh, after that time period and they were a little more independent, you know, three, four, things like that, I was just intellectually thirsty and desperate to, you kind of get back in the game.
[00:08:45] Nicole: And a friend of mine at the time was reading a book on the Enneagram and she said, Oh, I think you would love this. I'm so curious what number you think you might be. So that was probably eight years ago now. And that book led to Me reading every [00:09:00] possible book and article and everything on the Enneagram I possibly could, and a few years later starting my own private coaching practice where I help people figure out their type and how this can improve their relationships, their lives, their careers, things like that.
[00:09:14] Tatiana: And what book was it that started you on your journey? Do you remember the
[00:09:18] Nicole: one! Ask me that question! I think it was one of those kind of comprehensive reference guides. Like, I'm just that, I don't remember the name, and I can get it too, but I'm just that weird kind of person that even with infants and toddlers, all the books on my nightstand were about meetings and, you know, group dynamics, and I just love, I've always loved that kind of stuff.
[00:09:40] Nicole: I found it fascinating. So, it was kind of right in line with the things I was reading. In between, those really demanding early years.
[00:09:49] Tatiana: You know, you're making me want to actually start videoing, like showing the videos to people so that they don't just hear, because the enthusiasm on your face is contagious. I [00:10:00] love it. You know, when you just Find your thing. And myself, I also, I did the Myers Briggs when I was 18 in my teens, I'd been into Carl Jung's theories.
[00:10:11] Tatiana: And so I've always been really interested in that. And then when I found the Enneagram, I was like, Oh, this really makes sense because it's not just looking at your behavior. My understanding is that it actually gets to what motivates you. It actually cracked something open for me when I did it, where I went, Oh, I can understand some of this disconnect and It was a very powerful tool. I know often people who are looking at things like Myers Briggs or the Enneagram or they might look at like, I'm a Scorpio. I was born in the year of the dog. Like, you know, we associate ourselves with all of these. Different, [00:11:00] uh, whether you'd call them typing systems or personalities or astrological signs or, you know, other foundations.
Misconceptions and Misuse of the Enneagram
[00:11:06] Tatiana: What do you think are the biggest misconceptions about the Enneagram, the assumptions that people make about it?
[00:11:16] Nicole: That's a great question this is actually a topic I'm really passionate about because I did a workshop last fall about how the Enneagram has done more damage than good and how misused it because you know, with good intention sometimes we can take a little bit of knowledge and then kind of run with it before we really have the full picture and, and, you know, kind of take it out of context or misuse it in a way.
[00:11:39] Nicole: So, so myths and misconceptions is a huge part of my work and ongoing research. I think there are two main misconceptions. I think the first one, and I, I might've even had this with a sibling or family member at Thanksgiving or something saying, Oh, I don't want to be put in a box. Like I'm good. [00:12:00] And that's a very common response. I'm a unique individual. Why would I want something that's going to limit me and put, you know, four edges around me? And what I often share with people, if they're interested and if they want, if they're open to having their mind changed and having a discussion, is, you know, we have these, we each have these set of survival skills.
[00:12:25] Nicole: That we learned early on, that kept us safe when we were young, but now that we are mature and evolved adults, we no longer need them, because we are safe, you know, we're no longer in that kind of first 10 years of life when we're trying to figure out if we're safe or not, and those skills are kind of like a box, they're keeping us in a box, and what the Enneagram does is it, it kind of breaks it open, and says, you don't have to live like this anymore, you don't have to Be protective, or play small, or keep yourself safe in these ways you learned early on.[00:13:00]
[00:13:00] Nicole: So, I like to talk to people about how the Enneagram actually shows you the way out of the box that you're in. It's quite the opposite of what we think. So that's the first misconception. And then I guess the second one is, people can misuse it by typing others. Before they fully understand the holistic system, because it's really a tool that's meant to be used on ourselves, and become more self aware, you know, calmer, more observant of our own patterns, and that will positively ripple out in any direction,
[00:13:35] Nicole: but I've seen people misuse it to stereotype and to say, Oh, well, he does it that way because he's a six or she's really, you know, aggressive because she's this number and it's damaging, you know, it's, it's taking a small bit of information out of context and labeling somebody rather than being curious about their experience.
[00:13:55] Tatiana: I have certainly experienced that myself, and I think that's something that [00:14:00] can happen in any system. We did a training, in my corporate job, and on opposite ends, because it was shown in a wheel, the green was on the opposite from The red and the green tended to be very relationship focused and driven and the reds were very task oriented and you know getting deliverables done. we went through a whole day session and I couldn't believe it when a colleague said Oh, well, reds are just greens on a bad day. And I thought, were we in the same session? Because I think what sometimes happens with typing is people think I want to be that and they will say, Oh, something's wrong with my number.
[00:14:48] Tatiana: Or somebody else tells them that something's wrong with their number. And so it really resonates when you talk about how people, I would say even weaponize. through, through misuse and [00:15:00] the type of harm that it can do. I also really resonate with the person at the Thanksgiving table and saying, you know, I don't want to be put in the box.
[00:15:09] Tatiana: And it is that idea of how are there just nine boxes? It feels like if there's 7 million of us or billion, I mean, that there should be 7 billion boxes. But what the Enneagram is doing then is to sort of nine core functions, like, like groups, like continents on the planet.
[00:15:31] Nicole: Sure. You know how if you go to pick out paint or something, there's like 8 million shades of blue, and even white. When we reached in our bathroom, there's so many shades of white. You know, you're amazed that there could be, you know, hundreds of shades of white. So if there are nine types, and you know, say we, I'm just Randomly throwing these together, but say, you know, fives are green.
[00:15:53] Nicole: There's going to be some greens that are like lime green, tropical green, jungle green, turquoise, olive green, and they're all [00:16:00] green or they're all fives, but they have their own shading. They have their own unique based on, you know, their birth order, their nurturing environment growing up, their life experience, they're going to be their own sort of green and their own unique shading that, you know, can really go on for.
[00:16:18] Nicole: Forever. So it's a loose grouping based on, again, that poor motivation or those survival skills we learned, but there's so much variation within those groupings.
[00:16:28] Tatiana: I love that example. Like right away, I get it. Like how the range of the blues when you go into the paint store and they are distinct and unique, but they're still in the blue family.
[00:16:40] Nicole: Right, exactly.
[00:16:42] Tatiana: Okay.
The Enneagram's Role in Building Stronger Social Connections
[00:16:44] Tatiana: So when someone has an awareness of their Enneagram, how can that help to contribute to building stronger and more meaningful social connections?
[00:16:55] Tatiana: Cause that's what we want to do. This is a tool that we can use [00:17:00] to help us create stronger. Some of us have lost connections during COVID, um, maybe have become isolated by habit now. Because we don't get out as much, and we're not in the habit of doing those things, or we've lost touch with people.
[00:17:19] Nicole: Absolutely me try to answer this from a couple of angles. I think first and the Enneagram helps us get in touch with what we need. And it almost gives us a barometer for when am I, you know, that kind of full, colorful, alive version of myself? What does that look like? And when do I start to fade and detach and, you know, excuse myself and go through the motions and some of those more dull, lower energy behaviors, where we don't really feel fully happy and fully connected.
[00:17:54] Nicole: So it adds that extra level of self awareness and that lens of Here's what [00:18:00] really kind of brings me to life. Here's where I feel most like myself. You know, here are the environments or the people or the projects that really light me up. So it helps us understand ourselves better and kind of observe some of those highs and lows.
[00:18:14] Nicole: I think it also, if you go beyond learning about your own type and learning about all the types, it also helps you understand how to read the room. And, and who you are in groups. And do you dive right in and tell all the funny stories? You know, do you hang around the edges and observe and wait to be invited in?
[00:18:33] Nicole: do you rush in to kind of help and fix and, you know, do you need to be wary of your boundaries? Do you, are you overly helpful at your own expense? I mean, there's so many ways that knowing your type can help you understand your tendencies in groups and where you might overgive or wall off. Or overperform or commit to something too quickly.
[00:18:56] Nicole: So it just, it really, it gives you that bird's eye view to how do I [00:19:00] behave in groups and what actually lights me up.
[00:19:03] Tatiana: So for some people, they may already know a little bit about the Enneagram, and maybe they know what their number is, they've done a test or something. Could you give me an example of what some numbers, what numbers, what their reactions might be?
[00:19:20] Nicole: Absolutely. Um, if I group it into threes. Do you want me to talk specifically about numbers, or just more about groupings in general?
[00:19:30] Tatiana: Whichever works for you.
Understanding the Enneagram's Triads and Their Impact on Social Connections
[00:19:32] Nicole: Okay, so one of the groupings of three in the Enneagram is called, our stance, and that's how we respond to information that we're taking in. So ones, twos, and sixes. are in a group together. They are in the compliance stance. And that means their natural bent is to move toward people. They, they are the third of the nine personality types that move toward others.
[00:19:58] Nicole: They could move toward them [00:20:00] with solutions, with problem solving, with helpfulness, with generosity, with attentiveness. And so their natural bent is to move toward others. It's a wonderful thing. Those three numbers are incredibly helpful and practical ways in relationships. And there's also a caution that comes with that.
[00:20:17] Nicole: They can tend to put others first, at their own expense, and struggle to set healthy boundaries and take care of themselves. So, that's one grouping. It's that really moving toward others. The second grouping is called the withdrawing stance, and that's fours, fives, and nines. So these three personality types, the way they process the information they're taking in around them is by pulling inward.
[00:20:43] Nicole: So these are the more reflective types, the more analytical, not so much introverted, but just I'm, I'm going to pull into a private place and kind of process this and maybe withdraw from the group a little bit. That can be really helpful. Fours, fives, and nines are [00:21:00] very observant, very reflective, very analytical.
[00:21:03] Nicole: They also need to be invited in a little and drawn out. They're not going to walk in and be the life of the party. Or demand attention. So it's helpful to know that. And it's helpful to know that in terms of also, you know, friends you have that might draw you out or bring out a more, open side of you. Are you curious about the third group?
[00:21:25] Tatiana: Totally!
[00:21:26] Nicole: Okay, I hope I'm explaining it as simply as possible because, you know, it can get a little heady. The third group is the assertive stance, and those are threes, sevens, and eights. Now, when I first learned about this, it was called the aggressive stance, and I immediately decided that that word didn't seem neutral.
[00:21:45] Nicole: It seemed negative. And so a lot of the work I've done is around finding language that's neutral. to describe the types, not positive or negative. So the assertive stance is much more, I move [00:22:00] against people or out in front of them in like a leadership oriented, ambitious, everybody follow me sort of way.
[00:22:08] Nicole: And, you know, they are more comfortable just kind of being themselves in groups, setting goals, making plans, getting people to rally around them, because they're assertive. And that's really attractive, especially if you're not an assertive type. You're kind of like, oh, I feel, they have a plan, I feel safe with them.
[00:22:25] Nicole: You know, like, here we go. So, like any of the traits, that is wonderful. And then there can also be cautions with it of, you know, are you dominating the conversation too much? Or are you missing some of the quieter people? And so it's all about balance. If I know how I approach groups and what my comfort zone is, you know, where do I push myself?
[00:22:48] Nicole: Where do I pull myself back a little and how do I find other people that bring out? the best version of me.
[00:22:55] Tatiana: never heard it described like this. I understood that there were triads, but I [00:23:00] didn't understand how you present. And I feel there's just sort of inherently, I'm feeling that it's more nuanced because you often hear people talking about extroverts and introverts. And I, I would also put that with the caveat that people use that term, I think quite frequently inaccurately. And I really like how this It's, it feels more nuanced to me. It feels like it's more based in the driver. So if you are in that second triad and you know that you are somebody who your preference is to have, to have the invite, what do you need to do for yourself so that you can maintain social connection when somebody hasn't invited you in? And you prefer to be invited [00:24:00] because it's not insecurity, it's a preference, right? So I think some people might interpret that and as a friend might think, Oh, they're insecure. They don't want to go unless they have an invite. And it's not that they're insecure, it's, it's how they sort of function. So are they quite happy on their own?
[00:24:17] Tatiana: And if you know that you are, it's five, six, and what was the other number?
[00:24:24] Nicole: Uh, fours, fives, and nines.
[00:24:26] Tatiana: Four
[00:24:26] Nicole: for the,
[00:24:26] Tatiana: Sorry. If you are a four, five or nine and you feel like you have become disconnected over this period of time and maybe you're there and you're, let's say, doom scrolling through social media and you see other people are doing things and you're feeling that pain of loneliness, what do you need to know about it?
[00:24:46] Tatiana: Yourself to help you move forward to reconnect with people.
[00:24:53] Nicole: yeah, that's a great question. I mean, so we can talk about it really practically, like physically, you know, being invited. [00:25:00] So each type, each of those three groups have two intelligence centers that they're really strong at, and one that's sort of Atrophied. Let me explain what that means. We have our thinking center, our feeling center, and our doing center.
[00:25:15] Nicole: So in that withdrawing group, the fours, fives, and nines, they are exceptional thinkers and feelers. And that's where they get to that withdrawn, um, reflective analytical stance. What is genuinely harder for fours, fives, and nines is taking action. And putting themselves out there, or committing to a deadline, or completing something that they want to finish that they've been putting off.
[00:25:40] Nicole: So another, like, really practical way the Enneagram helps us is, helps us understand which intelligence center of mine am I underutilizing. So the taking action could be, call that friend that you've been thinking about for months, have for some reason procrastinated on calling [00:26:00] because it's an action step.
[00:26:01] Nicole: It's, it's out of your comfort zone. It's not your first reaction. You'd rather just think and feel and think and feel. and so the same is true for the other types too. They have two centers that they're really strong at and one that they kind of forget to utilize from, at, from time to time.
[00:26:18] Tatiana: So I'm going to guess that the third triad that you mentioned that they're strong in the action.
[00:26:24] Nicole: Yes.
[00:26:26] Tatiana: so if you can give us the numbers again and tell us for the first and the third, sort of, what are their strengths? And so that if people have done this and they hear their number, yes, I'm in the first or the third triad, like what, what is the thing that is stopping me?
[00:26:40] Tatiana: Cause Sometimes, even if you know your number, it's that you, you don't realize, Oh, it's the thing that's stopping me is the actual taking the action. That's what's stopping me. Like, it seems really logical when you step back and then you go, Oh, right. I, I haven't messaged somebody, or I haven't done something to make this happen.[00:27:00]
[00:27:00] Tatiana: Going back to third triad,
[00:27:03] Nicole: Yeah. And I'll just replace.
[00:27:04] Tatiana: were,
[00:27:05] Nicole: Your word triad with stance because
[00:27:07] Nicole: triads is grouping the enneagram, but it's a separate one. So the, so the groupings we're talking about are our stances. We either move toward people, away from people, or against or out in front of them. So, starting with the first group, the compliant stance, those are enneagram ones, twos, and sixes.
[00:27:27] Nicole: They move toward others. The intelligence centers that they are strong in are feeling and doing. So, I feel something, I take action. I feel something else, I take action. And that's their real kind of strong figure eight that they go into. I feel compelled to help my neighbor, I'm out there helping him. I feel, you know, anxious about this thing, I'm finding a solution. The one that they forget to utilize is the kind of pause and think. It's, can I stop [00:28:00] and think logically without taking action? And that's genuinely harder for them. than the other numbers. That's, that's not really their comfort zone, is to just stop and think without taking action, but to just kind of consider all the options.
[00:28:17] Nicole: So that can be really eye opening for ones, twos, and sixes.
Understanding the Assertive Stance in Enneagram
[00:28:20] Nicole: And then for the third group, The assertive stance, we're talking about Enneagram 3s, 7s, and 8s. Their two strong intelligence centers are thinking and doing. I'm logical, I'm strategic, I know what's happening, and I know what to do next. So those are real strengths.
[00:28:38] Nicole: What's less comfortable for them is the feeling. To pause and name, what does this feel like for me? You know, they can tend to kind of push emotions aside as less relevant or less productive than logic and action. Um, so that can be a really helpful thing for [00:29:00] 3s, 7s, and 8s to be aware of.
Exploring Friendships in Different Enneagram Types
[00:29:02] Tatiana: you say that some Enneagram, and I'm not sure if it's, if I would say types or numbers or stances. That form friendships more easily. And please correct me if I'm using the terms wrong, because I, if people want to explore it more, I don't want them to be misled and be like, Oh, but this is the type, and if I'm using the terminology wrong, I just want to make sure that we get it corrected.
[00:29:28] Tatiana: So it makes Absolutely. So I think Like anything, each number, each Enneagram number is going to bring a different set of strengths to friendships and relationships. So I, I couldn't say broadly, oh, relationships come much more easily to these numbers, but I could probably go through the nine numbers and say, you know, Enneagram 1's, probably bring this to relationships, generally speaking.
[00:29:55] Nicole: Would that be helpful?
[00:29:57] Tatiana: That would be really helpful. Like [00:30:00] maybe the number and what does work and then the challenge that they might have.
[00:30:05] Nicole: Absolutely.
Deep Dive into Individual Enneagram Types and Their Strengths
[00:30:06] Nicole: , so Enneagram Ones are very intentional in their relationships. They're very kind of, , principled, and they have kind of a high moral standard for themselves and others. Very, generous, service oriented, and great, again, in that solutions group, and being available with practical solutions.
[00:30:30] Nicole: And, and logic, you know, like if you're kind of spinning out of control, if you give an Enneagram one for a friend, they're going to be like, okay, so here are your options. And you're like, oh, thank God. I, you know, I lost my, lost my cool for a minute there. Um, they can struggle with boundaries because they're so service oriented.
[00:30:47] Nicole: They can over give and they can also struggle, you know, if they have a high standard for excellence and great results, they can put that standard on others, but even more so [00:31:00] on themselves. So, typically Enneagram 1s don't have a ton of patience for their own mistakes. They can be very critical and hard on themselves, and that can kind of ripple out into relationships as well.
[00:31:14] Nicole: So, as generous and organized as they are, it's also good to be aware of that kind of, the dark underbelly, you know, we all have. The flip side of our greatest strengths is our greatest weakness. Enneagram twos probably are described as the most, not social, but socially energized. A lot of twos, one of the labels given to them is the helper. Um, I don't love those labels because it leaves so much up to interpretation, but they're generous, they're collaborative, they love to help. They light up at the opportunity to help somebody else shine.
[00:31:52] Nicole: And so twos are You know, are very good in groups. They're very good in any kind of hospitality or [00:32:00] nurturing situations. They're just very good at making people feel welcomed and valued and not needing a ton of spotlight or feedback, like a little bit of a behind the scenes stance.
[00:32:14] Tatiana: They sound like a wonderful friend.
[00:32:16] Nicole: yes, the friend that's there, you know, before you even hang up the phone, right, they're in your driveway.
[00:32:21] Nicole: Yes, one of my closest friends of a few years back, before she moved away, was a two, and it was just that very practical, hands on, tell me what you need, and I'm there, kind of friendship. They can really, really struggle with boundaries, really struggle even with some codependency, like, I only have worth if I'm helping someone, and how do I, Put myself first and take care of myself and only take on the things that are really mine to solve.
[00:32:50] Nicole: So a lot of boundaries work can be really helpful for twos. Enneagram threes are in that assertive stance. So they, they're great visionaries as friends. [00:33:00] They're one of those, let's go get it, you know, like remind us what's possible and help us to think bigger and take action and kind of push ourselves.
[00:33:09] Nicole: They do have some overlap with twos and the real big heart, like Enneagram 3s are considered the heart leader. And yeah, they're always kind of onto what's next, what's our next big thing, like in an exciting, hopeful, visionary sort of way. So that can be really attractive in a friend and really energizing.
[00:33:29] Nicole: Um, Enneagram 3s are also quite sensitive to feedback and affirmation. Like they can tend to really thrive on, you know, do you like me? Do you think I'm successful? Do you think I'm doing a good job? And so that can bring a fragility to friendships. If there is, you know, difficult feedback or hard conversations that can be, you know, more challenging for somebody who's a three, is this all making sense?
[00:33:58] Tatiana: It is making [00:34:00] sense. And I'm, but I'm doing the thing that I know we shouldn't do, which is thinking about someone we know and
[00:34:07] Tatiana: thinking about what their number is. Because the reality with the Enneagram is that you can't tell from somebody's actions what number they are because you can't see what the motivation is.
[00:34:18] Tatiana: And that is really the core of the Enneagram, isn't it? It's like, it's what's motivating that individual, not necessarily what we see.
[00:34:28] Nicole: It's not that you can't do that, it's just that if you were to assume, Oh, because she does this, she's definitely a 3, and then I'm going to kind of claim that I'm the expert on her. That's what you can't do, or that's what would be damaging. Nothing wrong with kind of thinking, Oh, does my, you know, partner, my spouse, my mom, my best friend, I wonder what one they fit into.
[00:34:50] Nicole: That's, that's just normal curiosity.
[00:34:52] Tatiana: Yeah. And I, I, I know there are a few people who've been public about what their numbers are, like. Brene [00:35:00] Brown, I believe is a one. But it's interesting because you see somebody who you know them because of their work or their expertise. And then if they've been public about having done the test and what their own number is, then it offers you a different dimension to them. That I think is really powerful and understanding that we're all people and we all have challenges in how we form relationships. And yeah, so I am very interested to hear. Okay. So now we're moving into four.
[00:35:33] Nicole: Okay, moving into four. So, again, fours are in that withdrawing stance, that thinking and feeling. So, fours have a real similarity to twos in that they're very good with people. They can, you know, see, like, intuition, see the invisible web of things. personalities and conflicts. Um, but they're, they're just a little bit more private and creative.
[00:35:57] Nicole: Like the strength fours bring to relationships is [00:36:00] listening and holding space for really some kind of messy, dark stuff. Like maybe where some other personality types might have to put a silver lining on it for their own comfort. You know how sometimes you're going through a hard thing and you might share it with someone and they're like, Oh, well, You'll get through it.
[00:36:18] Nicole: You know, every, like, almost kind of premature silver lining and you're like, uh, this doesn't feel good. There's no silver lining yet. It's just hard stuff. So, fours and fives can hold the hard stuff. Like, they can hold space for your Dark, messy stuff that's complicated that does not yet have a silver lining or, you know, kind of light at the end of the tunnel.
[00:36:43] Nicole: so I would say actually they have, fours and fives have very similar strengths in that regard. The main difference is fours are more sensitive and in the kind of emotion zone. in feeling and emotion, and creativity, and fives are more in [00:37:00] logic and analytical. So fives actually do a great job of being very level headed in all scenarios, very composed.
[00:37:07] Nicole: In fact, I worked with a woman who was a five, and she was an ER nurse, and she said, Her colleagues couldn't tell by looking at her face when something was really urgent versus just standard, because she said even in the most, you know, urgent situations, she'd just be , calm and composed. Like, I need this, you know, and they were, and they couldn't tell because she wouldn't, she wouldn't panic.
[00:37:27] Nicole: She was very composed and logical in all scenarios. So as far as fives go, I would say that's definitely a strength. It's just that really Like, calm, cool, and collected, level headed, logical side of friendships, in addition to, you know, holding space for some harder things and being a good listener.
[00:37:49] Tatiana: I love this because each one, I know you're trying to frame it all in a very neutral sense, but I must say that as I'm listening, I'm thinking about how [00:38:00] important it is to have all of these different elements in your life, how it enriches our lives to hear and be surrounded by different types of people.
[00:38:13] Nicole: It really is a kind of like, each type brings something unique to the table that is kind of irreplaceable. There's no other placeholder or substitution for that personality type. And one of the darker sides, like the dark underbelly for fours and fives, is they can tend, you know, if they make space for the darker stuff, they can need a little bit of positivity and cheering up from time to time.
[00:38:36] Nicole: I mean, there can really be some kind of heaviness to their view. without, without some balance. Sixes, similar to ones and twos, are again in that others oriented stance, the compliant stance. Sixes are teachers, problem solvers, solution oriented, hands on, community [00:39:00] organizers. I mean, just they really rally around bringing the best out of a group. And not needing that spotlight. They're really kind of the team leaders of the Enneagram. So, um, loyal, dutiful, logical, solution oriented, just a really good practical friend that's gonna take action on your behalf when you're, when, when that's what you need. Um, they can also struggle with boundaries.
[00:39:27] Nicole: There's such fixers that then, okay, if I'm a real fixer, how do I cope when someone I love is going through a hard time and I can't fix it? That's uncomfortable for me.
The Role of Boundaries in Different Enneagram Types
[00:39:37] Nicole: If I'm a six, I'm much more comfortable in fixing.
[00:39:41] Tatiana: So you've raised boundaries a few times and I'm, I'm sort of ruminating on that and wondering, do we end up because it's a connection to how people really want to exist, that that's why there's a challenge [00:40:00] with boundaries so often, because they like, if you really want to be somebody who is of service, of value, fixing things, having an impact there.
[00:40:12] Tatiana: Is, is that the, the ones that are more prone to having boundary issues or like, why? Why? That's I Great question. It's a great question. I do bring it up a lot. It's been a huge part of my own personal work and it's a huge, you know, issue of that. I work with clients one on one and, you know, in groups and couples and things like that. I think that we really find a great deal of worth and value in helping others, and I think for some of us it comes down a little bit more to like self worth and identity.
[00:40:46] Nicole: Like, who am I? Am I fully loved and fully valuable and fully at peace with myself if I'm not helping anyone? And that question, for some types, is like, no problem. And for other types, [00:41:00] that pulls back the curtain on some deeper pain around self worth and identity. Is that, I got my security, my affirmation, my sense of worth.
[00:41:09] Nicole: By being so helpful, by being such a good friend, by taking care of my younger sibling, you know, whatever it may be. And so it can really enforce that you have value if you're helpful, you're hypervigilant, you're loyal. And, and so it just raises some bigger questions around, you know, can I fully accept and love and have compassion for myself, even if I'm not able to be the above and beyond friend or sibling or spouse or parent. At all times, or like I want to be, or like I see in my head.
[00:41:43] Tatiana: Yeah.
[00:41:44] Nicole: So I think boundaries is, it's almost like a, More like a symptom or a little flag that helps us dig deeper into bigger, you know, bigger personal work around self worth and identity and, how do we value our own company?
[00:41:57] Tatiana: Yeah. I agree. [00:42:00] But we aren't saying that if you have a certain number, it means that you have lower self worth or a feeling of that we wouldn't diagnose that. So the boundaries there are still distinct and different. And it's just an opportunity to explore why it is that you're doing that.
[00:42:17] Nicole: Yeah, why am I more comfortable if I'm involved in finding solutions and helping others than if I'm keeping my eyes on my own page?
[00:42:26] Tatiana: Okay,
[00:42:27] Nicole: so we've got three left.
Exploring the Last Three Enneagram Types
[00:42:28] Nicole: So Enneagram 7s, this is actually one that can be mistyped quite a bit because their sort of banner traits are enthusiasm and extroversion and being, you know, up for anything, those kind of firework friends. And certainly you can find that with many 7s, but there are also many 7s who are introverted or who are, you know, express it in a different shade.
[00:42:50] Nicole: But one of the strengths that sevens bring to a relationship is that silver lining component. They can reframe. It's the kind of like, you're [00:43:00] gonna get through this, and here's why, , and let's, you know, plan a trip, or let's go out to dinner, and think about how this is gonna make you stronger. I mean, it, it, it really is that kind of, I mean, I can think of all kinds of characters in movies and things like that, but that, that optimism, and that strong, deep optimism of, uh, Let's make the most of it.
[00:43:21] Nicole: Let's keep moving forward. That is a real strength that sevens bring to relationships and they have a high value for fun and playfulness. So, very few sevens take things themselves included too seriously. There's a lot of, lightheartedness and optimism in friendships with sevens. Absolutely wonderful.
[00:43:42] Nicole: I love sevens. I mean, I love all types, but, uh, they're a good balance for me in my more serious Serious nature,
[00:43:51] Tatiana: I
[00:43:52] Tatiana: automatically started thinking about the metaphor of the paint and I felt like you were describing like sunny yellow all the way down to a [00:44:00] nice buttercream. You know, they're, they're all yellow and, but it's that, that base color.
[00:44:09] Nicole: Mm-Hmm.
[00:44:09] Tatiana: And I think it's also because what the listeners can't see is in the background you have that wonderful color wheel, and it just builds on the metaphor.
[00:44:20] Tatiana: And I didn't really understand sevens that well before, and I didn't understand that element of them. So.
[00:44:28] Nicole: Yeah. And again,
[00:44:31] Nicole: Like any, that same, you know, bit of strength could lead to, you know, for sevens, it can be hard to acknowledge sad things, hard things, grief, to just kind of sit with you quietly without cheering you up. If that's what a situation requires, that's less comfortable for them.
[00:44:51] Nicole: So we all have that kind of imbalance.
[00:44:55] Tatiana: for someone who was a seven, it feels like they're the type that's almost going [00:45:00] to be immune from loneliness. How, but every, every number does experience it. Every individual can experience it. How would someone who feels so buoyant show up and struggle? I feel like I'm picking on the sevens now.
[00:45:17] Nicole: No, not at all. I mean, it's a great question. I think, you know, one of the things sevens really fear is boredom and a lack of stimulation. So just based on creating an environment that's comfortable for them, they might be less likely to I mean, they might be somebody who really fills their calendar and stays busy and stays in Facebook groups and has, you know, friends night outs and just kind of makes sure that their calendar does have a lot of variety and a lot of connections, because that's a very, you know, uncomfortable place for them is to have lack of stimulation or, um, lack of variety.
[00:45:53] Tatiana: So lockdown could have had a profound impact on a seven and [00:46:00] on their emotional well being, particularly.
[00:46:04] Nicole: Absolutely, especially if they were, you know, single or if lockdown meant a lot of isolation, where for some of us lockdown meant, you know, whole families locked in together, which was kind of the opposite, but
[00:46:15] Tatiana: I, I live through that too.
[00:46:16] Nicole: Um, so for Enneagram 8s, Enneagram 8s are in that assertive stance, they're follow me, we've got this, you know, and probably more so than the 3s and 7s in the sense of 8s love a challenge. It's like, show me the mountain and watch me climb it. And that, that's a real thing that all the assertive types have in common is, you know, you think I can't, watch me.
[00:46:40] Nicole: Very motivated by challenge, by, fixing problems, untangling problems, strategy, adventure, things like that. So, eights are fiercely loyal, very practical, but also very, like, it's almost like they give us that, that, like, tough love that we need to remind us to keep going. [00:47:00] In a very, deep hearted, deep caring, but like, loyal way.
[00:47:05] Nicole: And I know I've used the word loyal over and over. Um, yeah, it's kind of like eights remind us that nothing can break us. And that is so powerful and that's the unique to what they bring to relationships compared to the other eight numbers. Um, where that can be a challenge is eights really identify with strength and can struggle with some of displays of weakness or, you know, softer, more tender emotions.
[00:47:35] Nicole: they can get impatient, like, come on, you're strong, you can get through this. Don't crumble, you know. And, and so again, they're. There's a, an awareness that they can bring to, how do I support somebody who's maybe, you know, more fragile than me, or doesn't have the capacity to handle this right now? How can I still be patient and caring toward them?
[00:47:57] Tatiana: Mm-Hmm. And how about [00:48:00] for the eight's ability to reach out and ask for help when they are feeling like there's an absence? That must be a struggle.
[00:48:10] Nicole: Yeah, because sometimes we, we don't like in others what we don't like in ourselves. So I think, along with ones, eights also don't like weakness in themselves. You can kind of go above and beyond to push past that or ignore it or something like that. So, yeah, it can be hard for an eight. to ask for help.
[00:48:31] Nicole: Some eights, you know, because they're just very, very self reliant, very capable. A lot of eights I'm thinking of at the moment, friends in my life, are like, they'll camp in the woods alone, you know, like, like in Utah or something. I mean, they're, they're just, sure, yeah, just hike a mountain and camp. And here I'm thinking, like, I would never spend a night alone in a tent, you know, in the wilderness, but, but I would with an eight, you know.
[00:48:56] Nicole: So it's just always this, this impressive display of strength [00:49:00] and self reliance. Obviously there can be an underside with that or a caution with that.
[00:49:06] Tatiana: Well, I'm gonna tip my hand here. As you know, I am an eight and. It was funny because when we talked about, you know, being in lockdown just a second ago and being in there with the kids, when it was lifted, I went off and did the West Coast Trail, which is a 70 plus kilometer long, track. And I did it solo and it's considered an extreme hike in the wilderness.
[00:49:33] Nicole: We did not plan this Yes.
[00:49:36] Tatiana: But one thing I don't love is I don't love a lot of planning. I do a lot of it during the day and as a single parent and then I just, I just don't want to I'm like, I know I've got to get from this point to this point and even once I got there I decided to make it a day shorter and go hike to an extra spot because you have to have bear catches so that you can.
[00:49:59] Tatiana: Secure [00:50:00] your food, because there's lots of bears. So yeah, that really resonates. But I also understand, and this is one that I can speak to personally, is that difficulty in reaching out and asking for help. And so I become my own barrier. Yeah. So we have one, one number left.
[00:50:20] Nicole: Yes we do. We have the nines and, and the nines are so patient 'cause they often go last. So sometimes I would teach workshops and I'd go backwards so the nines wouldn't have to wait till the end. Um, one last thing that's actually hugely important about eights I forgot to mention, is the advocacy piece.
[00:50:35] Nicole: Eights are the advocate for the underdog and for fairness and justice. And they bring that to the table almost more than any other number. Twos and fours do as well, but they're a bit more sensitive and emotion led, whereas eights are more that kind of advocacy, fairness, justice piece, which I wanted to mention.
[00:50:53] Nicole: Nines
[00:50:55] Nicole: bring a tremendous amount [00:51:00] of open mindedness to relationships. Nines can hold many perspectives at once. They're very easy to talk to about anything. They will not judge you. And they're very curious and kind of one of those shades of gray thinkers. So, you know, we can probably all think of people in our life, some people who are really black and white, like it's either this or that, if you have a thinker in your life, who's more kind of like shades of gray, sees the nuance and things, they could be a nine because that's a real strength that nines bring to conflict resolution.
[00:51:34] Nicole: Facilitation, kind of keeping everybody in the room calm and helping them hear each other's perspectives, being open to letting someone take the lead, being curious. Um, so nines. A healthy nine will really kind of lower everybody's blood pressure. Like they really kind of help us sit back and be more patient, more flexible, more [00:52:00] easygoing, and not, you know, need to be in control, or need to be right, or need to be in charge.
[00:52:05] Nicole: They really kind of help everybody zoom out a little bit, and it's a tremendous strength in relationships.
[00:52:12] Tatiana: Wow. We've learned a lot. We have.
Understanding the Enneagram Test and Its Implications
[00:52:15] Tatiana: So if a listener hasn't already done their Enneagram type, what resources do you recommend for further exploration? Like how can they do a test or figure out what their number is? What do you recommend?
[00:52:30] Nicole: I recommend a couple of things. I mean, I recommend to read through all of the type descriptions with a really open mind. , I love sending people first and foremost to the Enneagram Institute website because this is a real institute in upstate New York that runs retreats and people who work there are certified and trained.
[00:52:51] Nicole: So it, it, You know, has a pretty solid foundation and was there before the Enneagram became trendy. And there's a test, a 12 test on [00:53:00] their website you can take called the Ready, R H E T I, and it's a really helpful starting point. I will say the test can be inaccurate for a couple of reasons. People can either get a, their top type doesn't feel accurate, or they get a different type every time.
[00:53:18] Nicole: They take it three times in a row and get three different types. So one of the things I do offer is typing sessions where people bring their test results and a couple of questions, and we get to talk and really dig into the more qualitative part of the assessment, not the quantitative, because standardized tests have their limitations.
[00:53:36] Nicole: They do some things well, but they can't do everything well. , so I do a lot of those one on one for people who. You know, are confused, frustrated, or feel like their results are inaccurate. One other really helpful clue is to have a really open mind, and if there's a type that you read about that bothers you, or you think, ooh, I don't want to be that type, sometimes that might [00:54:00] actually be the type that you are.
[00:54:02] Nicole: And, and that can't be, you know, a copy and paste broadly applied to everything, but typically if something bothers us, sometimes it's, it's holding up a that we're not ready to see, and so we It repels us a little bit. that doesn't happen all the time, but it happens enough that it's worth mentioning to just be open.
[00:54:24] Nicole: If you read a description or you read about a type and you're like, oh, that's definitely not me, it might be worth some further exploration. It
[00:54:33] Tatiana: read it and they go, Hmm, that sounds familiar. Doesn't that happen?
[00:54:40] Nicole: does, and we all have You know, hearts of ourselves that are hard to be compassionate toward. And that's what the implication really is.
[00:54:51] Tatiana: Yeah.
Final Thoughts and Ways to Connect
[00:54:52] Tatiana: Well, you've given us a lot here and I'm going to make sure that we've got a link to the Enneagram Institute [00:55:00] in the show notes, as well as a way to connect with you. So before we leave, what is the best way to connect with you?
[00:55:08] Nicole: I have a free leadership guide that goes through the nine types of the Enneagram and what their top five strengths or superpowers are in a leadership position, which, you know, is a broad kind of label. You can find that at my leadership superpowers. And what downloading, entering your email and downloading that will also, um, you can read about the superpowers of all nine types.
[00:55:33] Nicole: You can also read about some growth tips for each type. And then you'll also get on my email list where I, you know, send out just valuable, interesting stories, anecdotes, and important things coming up about, , courses I might be opening or things like that.
[00:55:50] Tatiana: That's great. Well, we'll have it in the show notes. And thank you so much, Nicole, for joining us today. I've learned so much and a different element of the [00:56:00] Enneagram that I hadn't understood as well before. And I'm hoping that what people will be able to take away is that everybody has Different drivers, they have complementary role to play in friendship and that when you understand yourself a little bit better, you'll be able to understand how you can make connections with others again.
[00:56:23] Nicole: Thanks for having me. This was great.
[00:56:25] Tatiana: Thank you.
[00:56:25] Tatiana: Thanks for joining me on another episode of Happy ish. If you enjoyed this episode, hit the follow button and I can promise you more content like this. But don't keep it to yourself, share it with a friend. So until next time, keep your curiosity alive, spread kindness wherever you go, and never forget that you are the author of your story.
[00:56:51] Tatiana: This has been an Awkward Sage Production.